Cream of the Crop 1/Cream of the Crop 1.iso/RELIGION/OB_91A.ARJ/08-01-91

Text File | 1992-03-03 | 374KB | 8,879 lines

Date       08-01-91 07:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> You  must  remmenber  that  Jesus is still a human.  He is not
 KK> as divine  as  he  was when in Heaven,

 Does 'not as divine' mean not exactly God.   I think we agree.

 KK> If you haven't noticed  in  (John  8:58)  Jesus  claims  that  he
 KK> existed before Abraham;  he  also  applied  Gods  Holy  name to
 KK> himself (I AM -- Exodus 3:14).  So the Jewish leaders tried to
 KK> stone him.

 I don't believe Jesus pre-existed his birth.  The 'word' that
 pre-existed Jesus' birth was the IDEAL of a perfected man.

 The Ideal for a perfected woman also exists.   So when a perfected woman
 does appear it does not mean that she has actually been existing before
 her birth.

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Date       08-01-91 08:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> We  human  beings  are  separated  from  God by sin, and only
 KK> one person  in  the universe is our mediator and can stand
 KK> between us and  bring  us  together  again--Jesus,  who is both
 KK> God and man.

 You already told me Jesus lost some of his divine nature.

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Date       08-01-91 08:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> Because  of  his unity with God, Jesus lived as God wanted him
 KK> to live.    Because  of our identification with Jesus, We must
 KK> honor him and live as he wants us to live.

 This clearly brings up the question of how many gods you believe their
 are.  I believe there in ONE God.

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Date       08-01-91 08:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>              of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
                                         ^^^^

 KK> Paul  was teaching that any false doctrines that didn't teach
 KK> the doctrines  of Christ.  Then God-Jesus didn't abideth within
 KK> them.

 I must have made a mistake.  I though you followed the traditional
 belief that there is ONE God ?

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Date       08-01-91 08:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the
 KK> TB>              light, and were
 KK> TB>              afraid; but they heard not the voice of him
 KK> TB>              that spake to
 KK> TB>              me.

 KK> If  your  trying  to  prove  that Jesus and God are not the
 KK> same. Good  luck  because  it  can't be done with the WORD OF
 KK> GOD.  The WORD states over and over again that Jesus is GOD.

 I don't claim to be abel to prove my point.  You are missing the point.

 If Jesus is God then whose voice is he speaking to him ?   How many Gods
 are there ?

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Date       08-01-91 08:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Glen Davis
Subject    Divine Principle

 GD> TB> There is not another person in this
 GD> TB> entire conference that understands or believes the Divine
 GD> Principle. TB> EVERY message I have entered for the past year
 GD> and half has been TB> written to someone that does not believe
 GD> the way I do.

 GD> What is it and why haven't I heard of it?

 God was probably trying to protect you from the negative publicity.

 Keep reading my messages and you will hear of it.

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Date       08-01-91 08:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject    Everlasting Lifef

 TB> TB>  The ONLY way any human can continue to exist after physical
 TB> death TB>  is in a spiritual state.
 TB>
 TB> Can you please show me this in the Bible. There should be some
 TB> thing in there if that is a teaching of the Bible.

 ECC 12:7    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the
             spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 TB> Also, what about the verse in Psalm 37: 29 "The righteuos
 TB> themselves will posses the earth. And they will reside forever
 TB> upon it." Also read all of the chapter 37 of Psalm's  it refers
 TB> to those that will live on the earth forever.

 What if I told you that Korean people were going to inherit the earth
 and reside forever upon it...   would that mean that specific Korean
 person was not going to grow old and die ?

 In other words 'The ritghteous' is a classification of people.

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Date       08-01-91 08:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject    hypocrisy

 TB> When I first got on this open bible echo, I thought that people
 TB> were more open mined about what was in the Bible.

 Could it be possible that we thought the same thing about you ?

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Date       08-01-91 16:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Christ part 1/4

 WC>     Which way do you intend to go, Terry. In one breath you say
 WC> that Jesus is not God not you are saying that He is God. Have
 WC> you changed your mind on Jesus being God?

 Humans have the potential to live in a relationship with God.  When a
 person perfects his or her relationship with God then God is living in
 that person.  That person would not fall or commit a sin that would
 cause grief to that relationship or risk losing that relationship.

 When a person lives in perfect harmony with God, that person becomes the
 incarnation of the love of God.   This person takes on the same value as
 God.  When you attack this kind of person it is the same thing as
 attacking God.  When you love and respect this person, it is the same
 thing as loving and obeying God.   In a sense this person is the living
 representative of God.  But nevertheless this person is not really God
 who created the universe.

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Date       08-01-91 16:27:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Christ part 2/4

 WC>     We can resolve most questions about the Godhead if we
 WC> properly understand the dual nature of Jesus. When we read a
 WC> statement about Jesus we must determine if it describes Jesus as
 WC> a man or as God.

 Walter, I have not neglected your messages, but I did not respond simply
 because I don't know how to help you see God as the person He really is:
 A parent.  Jesus could not manifest the fullness of God's nature  Only
 True parents can do that.  The messiah and his bride ( not a mythical
 congregation ), together are necessary to manifest the parental heart of
 God on earth.   It was God that created His children in his image Male
 and Female.  The image of God can only be fully manifested in a
 marriage.   I wish you could understand this.

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Date       08-01-91 16:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Christ part 2/4

 WC> moment and then as God the next moment. However, we must always
 WC> remem- ber that Jesus is fully God and not merely an anointed
 WC> man. At the same time, He was fully man, not just an appearance
 WC> of man. He had a dual nature unlike anything we have, and we
 WC> cannot adequately compare our existence or experience to His.
 WC> What would seem strange or impos- sible if applied to a mere
 WC> human becomes understandable when view in the context of One who
 WC> is both fully God and fully man at the same time.

 I don't know why you continue to disregard all the accounts of Jesus
 talking to an external being that he called God.


 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
                                ^^^^

 Both     What does 'both' tell you ?

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Date       08-01-91 16:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Christ part 3/4

 WC> Psalm 110:1. According to Acts 7:55, Stephen looked up into
 WC> heaven while being stoned to death and "saw the glory of God,
 WC> and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." What does this
 WC> phrase mean?

 When Stephen says he saw Jesus and God together it means that Jesus was
 a separate identity from God.


 WC> Does this mean that there are two physical
 WC> manifestations of God in heaven, God and Jesus, with the latter
 WC> perpetually stationed on the right hand of the former? Is this
 WC> what Stephen saw?

 NO he saw One manifestation of God and another manifestation of God's
 son, Jesus, who wasn't God.  I think you are starting to get the
 picture.

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Date       08-01-91 16:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Christ part 4/4

 WC>     Not that I can believe!! However, Satan certainly is making
 WC> such an attempt.

 Looks like you are picking up a bad habit from Steve Winters. Calling
 folks Satan or saying that Satan in working through someone only serves
 to make one feel superior.   You don't need to do that Walter.

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Date       08-01-91 17:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    Jehovah's Witnesses

 DO> Thank you very much for this. If you ever get to where you DO
 DO> want two guys in your living room, let me know. I'll send
 DO> somebody around! <grin>

 Let me know too and I can arrange to have some flowers delivered... for
 a small contribution...   say 100 bucks !   < grin >

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Date       08-01-91 17:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Ken Akridge
Subject     Jesus

 KA> Can you give the references you are using to come to that
 KA> conclusion ?                                         ^^^^

 Sorry, I send out over a dozen messages a day and even today I got in 22
 at one time so I don't know what 'that' is referring to.

 KA> next question: Was Jesus punished for the sins he took upon
 KA> Himself.  If so what was that punishment ?

 Jesus was innocent and therefore deserved no punishment for anything.
 When he was rejected, the consequences of the mistake of the people
 should have been man's eternal possession by Satan.  However, Jesus made
 the conscious decision to make an Indemnity condition to prevent this
 from happening.  Jesus crucifixion was a condition for the messiah to
 return and give man another chance in about 2,000 years.

 KA> I appreciate the time it takes to formulate a reply and I thank
 KA> you for it.

 Thanks,  Keep reading, I will be posting message about the purpose of
 the coming of the Messiah.

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Date       08-01-91 17:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject     Jesus

 MS> KA> When Jesus died, did he go to hell ?
 MS> TB>
 MS> TB>  Yes, he went into the 'nether glooms' and preached for 3
 MS> days and 2 TB>  nights.  Pretty strong evidence that God intends
 MS> to clean up Hell. TB>  Hell may not be a place people will
 MS> actually spend eternity. And just where in Scripture is that
 MS> found, Terry?

 You did not ask for references when you posted the message.  Why do you
 want them now ?   Do you dislike my answer ?  <grin>

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Date       08-01-91 17:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Messiah

 WC> TB>Looks to me like Abraham did something wrong.
 WC>
 WC>     You cannot know this from the relating of the above event.
 WC> It is extra-biblical.

 So you are trying to tell me that God condemned Abraham's descendants to
 400 years of slavery without a reason ?  Sorry Walter,  I can't buy
 this.

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Date       08-01-91 17:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject      Messiah

 MS> It doesn't matter to you that while the New Testament agrees
 MS> with the Old Testament, your "new revelation" doesn't agree with
 MS> either of them, and insteadscompletely contradicts them?
 MS> Doesn't sound the same to me....

 That is because you are on the outside looking in.

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Date       08-02-91 08:27:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject     Jesus' Resurrection

 DO> COMFORTAhoused on this planet, I have seen some. The exponential
 DO> nature of the populatiogrowth puts a very significant percentage
 DO> of all humans ever born alive
 DO> right now. The way that man has ruined the earth makes these few
 DO> seem to be overcrowded. You are perhaps incapable of seeing how
 DO> Jehovah could put

 So you are trying to tell me that there would never come a time in all
 eternity that the earth would be over populated ?   You got to be
 kidding.  With people reproducing then those children reproducing... do
 you know what geometrical progression is ?    Eternity is a long time
 and if only 1 woman had a baby every 5 years, before eternity is
 finished if no one died the earth would still run out of standing room.

 How can you grow something to eat with a man standing on it ?

 Call me a materialist of simply practical... at least I'm thinking.

 I do have a little admiration for people who can follow blind faith.

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Date       08-02-91 14:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject     What A Guy!

 DO> This is how you keep your mouth in check? You take the same
 DO> egotistical attitudethat the Pope takes in assuming God's role.
 DO> Satan has the same desire. You
 DO> think you have the power to judge who is a better human? Jesus
 DO> even restrained

 I have nothing to say about this topic, but I do wonder what it is
 between a Catholic and a Jw that sparks so much animosity ?

 I understand that almost every faith believes they are the chosen
 'elect' that will live in heaven while the rest will be denied the
 honor, so why so much friction ?

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Date       08-02-91 16:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> > KK> We  human  beings  are  separated  from  God by sin, and
 KK> only > KK> one person  in  the universe is our mediator and can
 KK> stand > KK> between us and  bring  us  together  again--Jesus,
 KK> who is both > KK> God and man.
 KK>   TB>
 KK>   TB> You already told me Jesus lost some of his divine nature.
 KK> Thats true, But he regained it after is resurrection when he
 KK> returned to Heaven.

 So where was this lost nature while Jesus was in the flesh ?

 You now should see that a lie requires anothere lie to cover up it's
 shortcomings.   Why not simply believe the truth ?

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Date       08-02-91 16:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> This clearly brings up the question of how many gods you
 KK> believe their TB> are.  I believe there in ONE God.
 KK> Guess what your RIGHT! There is only ONE GOD! Jesus was the Body
 KK> of God, And God is the Spirit, and Know Jesus is the Holy
 KK> Spirit. Confussed Yet?


 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
             [him] in spirit and in truth.


 ACS 10:38   How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and
             with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that
             were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

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Date       08-02-91 16:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> I must have made a mistake.  I though you followed the
 KK> traditional TB> belief that there is ONE God ?
 KK> I Do! there is only ONE GOD! Jesus and God are ONE!

 Why does scripture refer to them as 'both' ?

 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

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Date       08-02-91 17:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> If Jesus is God then whose voice is he speaking to him ?
 KK> TB>How many Gods  are there ?

 KK> His  Spirit,  the  Father! When Jesus Died he temporarly lost
 KK> his divine  attributes.    Thus the need to Pray to his Spirit.

 Where did it go ?

 KK>  Don't  try  to  prove
 KK> the Bible wrong just accept  His  Word.  We are taught by the
 KK> WORD and the SPIRIT that Jesus  and  God  are ONE and you should
 KK> accept that.

 Looks like that's what you did.    I'm sorry I cannot accept an
 irrational doctrine.

 KK> If you want to  believe  other  wise  read  a WT translation.

 You lost me.  Are you promoting the Wt ?

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Date       08-02-91 17:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vlad Tepes
Subject    Intelligent Plan or Natur

 VT> In the arctic circle, there isn't much sunlight, and persons
 VT> with dark skin soon become ill due to a vitamin deficency.

 I suppose black people shouldn't work in a coal mine ?

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Date       08-02-91 17:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vlad Tepes
Subject    Intelligent Plan or Natur

 VT> These small changes accumulate over time, resulting in
 VT> differences great enough that we call them different species.

 Well I do understand variation.  But when you start comparing me to a
 monkey, I really have trouble believing he is my ancestor.  Don't you ?

 Do you really believe that something as complex as a human being can be
 created through random action/selection ?    I would venture to bet that
 if you took a million monkeys and put them in an area with a million
 typewriters, their random selection of keys would NEVER even duplicate
 this message.    If something as simple as this message could not be
 duplicated randomly how would something as complex as human life evolve
 without the guidance of a supreme being ?   I'm sorry, I find it highly
 illogical that I am here by coincidence.

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Date       08-02-91 17:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.1 part 1/2

 WC> TB>Are you going to fall for that eternal life in the flesh
 WC> stuff?  Like the Jw's teach ?

 WC>     The Bible clearly teaches us that Jesus had a physical body
 WC> after He arose. It also teaches us that we will have bodies like
 WC> Him. There- fore we will all receive resurrection bodies which
 WC> are immortal. They will resemble the ones we have not but will
 WC> not be the same.

 Oops,  looks like they got to  you before I did.  < grin >  ...and we
 got so many flowers we were counting on you to sell before they wilted.

 Well at least you do say the resurrected body will not be the same.
 There is still a little work left for them to do on you.  < grin >

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Date       08-02-91 17:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.1 part 1/2

 WC> TB>Every day we see animals that have grown old die.  This is
 WC> not a TB>result of sin. No animal ever sinned.  Likewise man's
 WC> physical TB>death is not related to sin.
 WC>
 WC>     God never claimed that they did. God gave Adam dominion over
 WC> all things on the earth. When Adam sinned then sin and death
 WC> entered into the world.

 The death that resulted from the fall was separation from God.  It is
 not related to the ageing and decaying of flesh.

 I think I am finally beginning to see the difference in our thinking.
 Every time I try to teach you something you don't understand you label
 it as Extra-Biblical.  And when I read your interpretation of scripture
 the word that comes to my mind is 'Irrational'.   What we have here is
 the struggle between faith and reason.   I can't see why a person would
 believe something that is an obvious contradiction to reason.  You can't
 understand why a person would want to have rational faith.

 This conflict between faith and reason has been going on for who knows
 how long.  Do you think we can resolve it ?

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Date       08-02-91 17:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.1 part 1/2

 WC>     Sure you have, Terry. You have repeatedly said that Jesus
 WC> did not come into the world to die. Yet I have given you
 WC> Scriptures which clearly prophesied the He did come to die for
 WC> our sins. Either you are the Scripture are wrong.


 Or the third possibility  3.  You have not understood me yet.

 Jesus did not come to die.  The people rejected him and he was forced to
 take an alternative course.  At this point Jesus mission was to go the
 way of the cross.

 Can't you see Walter ?   Like this...  you start out for New Orleans,
 you come to the last exit before the long bridge then notice you are
 really low on gas.  You stop and get some.   Your deviation from your
 original destination was a result of a situation that developed along
 the way.

 Same with Jesus.   He came to be Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  The
 people did not recognize him and rejected him.  He then went the way of
 the Suffering Servant.

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Date       08-02-91 17:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.1 part 2/2

 WC> TB>God wants GRAND CHILDREN!
 WC>
 WC>     Nope. There is absolutely NO provision for grandchildren in
 WC> Scripture. There is only provision for children. God does not
 WC> now nor will He ever have grandchildren. He will have only
 WC> children.
 WC> TB>How else can He have grand children unless two sinless mature
 WC> TB>adults of the opposite sex are married with His blessing, get
 WC> TB>together and have children ?
 WC>
 WC>     He could but speak the word and there would be hundreds of
 WC> mil- lions of perfect adults yet He has not. God is not
 WC> interested in grandchildren. His interest is in children. In
 WC> ancient times there was not even a word for "grand"
 WC> (children/father/mother). Since the He- brews were God's chosen
 WC> that in itself should tell you something.

 You are big time wrong on this one Walter.

 Let me simply re-quote myself:

 God wants GRAND CHILDREN!

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Date       08-02-91 17:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.1 part 2/2

 WC> II Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God
 WC> with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath
 WC> said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be
 WC> their God, and they shall be my people.               ^^^^^^^
 WC>                     ^^^^^^^^
 WC>     There you are straight from Scripture. A very definite clear
 WC> statement to the church that we are the temple of God. The
 WC> context was not future but present.

 Humm,  Doesn't 'will be' and 'shall be' refer to the future ?

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Date       08-02-91 17:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.3

 WC> TB>Now you know they were VERY mistaken and confused.
 WC>
 WC>     We know that some were neither. The knew and were not
 WC> confused. They just did not care.

 And what if they had cared ?  Would God's plans to have Jesus murdered
 possibly been foiled ?

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Date       08-02-91 17:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.3

 WC>     As I have already stated, I have received the gift of the
 WC> Holy Spirit which will lead me into all truth. My beliefs are
 WC> entirely Scriptural.

 So were those of the Jewish people who could not see Jesus for who he
 really was.


 WC> TB>I agree. I told you some things were a new revelation.
 WC>
 WC>     Since it contradicts the written word where is the
 WC> demonstration of power and authority which God always sends to
 WC> authenticate such things?

 Well at least I'm in good company !

 MAR 1:27   And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among
            themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine
            [is] this?

 ACS 17:19  And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying,
            May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest,
            [is]?

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Date       08-02-91 17:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.5

 WC> TB>Because Adam and Eve did not believe God's Work, they could
 WC> not TB>establish the Foundation of Faith and they fell.
 WC>
 WC>     It was not God's Work that they did not believe. It was
 WC> God's word that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of
 WC> knowledge of good and evil they would die.

 OOPs,  I made a typing error.   I think 'k' and 'd' are the same
 position just different hands.    Well, now the secret is out.. I don't
 know my right hand from my left.   ...but I do know ALL truth < grin >

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Date       08-02-91 18:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.6

 WC>     No human being has ever had the capability to prefect
 WC> themselves. Scripture very clearly says the we are not saved by
 WC> our works. You have just told us that Adam and Eve had to
 WC> prefect themselves. This was not then nor is it now a
 WC> possibility. Only God can prefect man and that will happen only
 WC> after death.

 You can write this kind of message every day, 50 times a day, for the
 rest of your life, but you know that you have an individual
 responsibility that God isn't going to fulfull for you.  You will
 determine where you spend eternity.  Not God.

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Date       08-02-91 18:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.6

 WC>     As stated this was an impossibility from the very start.
 WC> God's children already have power and authority over angels.

 So why can't anyone simply cast out demons ?    You are involved with
 this kind of stuff, have you ever commanded a demon to leave someone
 under the name and authority of Walter Coups  ?       Try is sometime.

 You may learn that you will have to call Ghost Busters and get a little
 back up support. You know who the real Ghost Buster is don't you.

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Date       08-02-91 18:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.6

 WC> It is extra-biblical and contradicts Scripture. Either
 WC> you are correct and God lied in His word to us or God is correct
 WC> and you are wrong.

 Ouch !   Must have touched a nerve.

 Whenever you feel such a reaction, you can bet that you are hearing
 something that Satan doesn't want you to know. Count on it.

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Date       08-03-91 08:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>     1.) Now Who was the WORD? _________

 The 'word' means IDEAL.  God had the vision of an Ideal man from the
 very beginning.  Adam failed to fulfill the ideal so God Jesus was born
 to fulfill the positon. There is also the 'word' or ideal for a
 perfected Woman.  But that does not mean she pre-exists her birth.

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Date       08-03-91 16:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Christ

 WC>     This is another of those places where you contradict
 WC> Scripture. God's spirit indwells a person when long before they
 WC> are perfected. One cannot prefect himself. It is only via the
 WC> power of God that this can be done. Only those who have the Holy
 WC> Spirit dwelling within them have the power to overcome sin.

 Then the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in anyone.  Who is without sin ?

 Your teaching is Extra-Biblical.

 Jesus clearly said the responsibility for aperson's salvation is decided
 by that individual:

 MAT 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
           the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
           which is in heaven.        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Date       08-03-91 16:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Christ

 WC>     This is nothing more than a variation of the lie which Satan
 WC> told Eve in the Garden when he told her that she could become
 WC> god. It was not true then and is not true now.

 Satan told a half truth.  Man can indeed become like God.  It is only
 the method that Satan taught that was the lie:  illicit sexual conduct.

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Date       08-03-91 16:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Christ

 WC> TB>Walter, I have not neglected your messages, but I did not
 WC> respond TB>simply because I don't know how to help you see God
 WC> as the person TB>He really is: A parent.
 WC>
 WC>     The only way you can convince me, Terry is to show me in
 WC> Scrip- ture where I am wrong. So far you have only offered me
 WC> extra-biblical stuff which contradicts Scripture.

 Try the Lords Prayer you can't get any more Biblical than that:

 MAT 6:9   After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
           heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
 LUK 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art
           in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be
           done, as in heaven, so in earth.

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Date       08-03-91 16:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Christ

 WC> TB>The messiah and his bride (not a mythical congregation),
 WC> together TB>are necessary to manifest the parental heart of God
 WC> on earth.
 WC>     The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus will ever marry
 WC> and father children. It does teach that the body of believers is
 WC> the Bride of Christ.

 Correct,  this is the part I am trying to teach you that is a new
 revelation.   There is certainly nothing in the Bible that contradicts
 the Messiah becoming a father.  Where does it say Jesus had to die
 without a wife ?

 Don't you wonder why a central theme of Jesus' speech in the New
 Testament is the 'Bridegroom' ?    How can you have a bridegroom without
 a bride.   Such an idea is IRRATIONAL.

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Date       08-03-91 17:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.7

 WC> TB>God's central dispensation of preparation for the Messiah is
 WC> TB>clearly shown in the Old Testament.  Right at the beginning,
 WC> God's TB>dispensation for Adam's family was frustrated by Cain's
 WC> slaying TB>Abel.
 WC>
 WC>     No, Terry, the problem started in the Garden, not with Cain
 WC> and Abel.

 I think you misunderstood.  I was saying that the process or providence
 for restoration began with Cain and Abel.   Do you find any evidence
 that God began the work of restoration directly with Adam and Eve ?

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Date       08-03-91 22:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> So where was this lost nature while Jesus was in the flesh ?
 KK> TB> You now should see that a lie requires anothere lie to cover
 KK> up it's TB> shortcomings.   Why not simply believe the truth ?
 KK>     In him, and in Heaven, present in God Spirit...
 KK>
 KK>     It  is  not  a  lie, God is spirit, and is omnipresent. He
 KK> can be     anywhere  at  anytime.  If  1000  people  pray to him
 KK> at the same     time,  they  all are answered at once.  does
 KK> this make 1000 Gods?     Of course not.

 You sure ducked that question ?   Why didn't you talk about where Jesus'
 lost nature went ?     Your reply has no relevance to the question.  I'm
 beginning to wonder if you can respond in a rational manner and stay on
 topic.

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Date       08-03-91 22:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> ACS 10:38   How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy
 KK> Ghost and TB>             with power: who went about doing good,
 KK> and healing all that TB>             were oppressed of the
 KK> devil; for God was with him.     Correct,  The  Spirit  of god
 KK> is present everywhere, He is in you     and  I and all over.
 KK> This doesn't make us Gods.  But proves that     God  is
 KK> omnipresent.    He  can be anywhere, in Jesus who is god
 KK> manfested  in  the  flesh, in You, in Me and in Heaven all at
 KK> the     same time.

 So is there any difference between Jesus and us ?

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Date       08-03-91 22:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>     You  still  have yet to find IRAFUTABLE Scripturial evidence
 KK> that     Jesus  is not God.  Yes Jesus and God are seperate
 KK> forms, and yes     Jesus  prays  to  God.    This  doesn't
 KK> prove anything.  You are     neglecting  scripturial  evendence
 KK> that says he IS God.  You just     searching  verses  to
 KK> degrade  him.

 I didn't expect to find 'Irafutable' evidence.  You are going to see
 only whatever you want to see and filter out the rest.

 What do you mean Jesus and God are 'separate forms' ?  Things that are
 separate are not the same.  By your own definition you are admitting
 belief in two Gods.

 There is nothing degrading in saying Jesus was not God.  The Messiah,
 Christ, is not God, he is the Mediator between man and God...  haven't
 you read ?

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;


 Why don't you say the Bible degrades Jesus by calling him the last Adam?

 Was Adam God ?


 God's image is Male and Female NOT male OR female.  So the only way you
 can have the full manifestation of God on earth is in a marriage.  Had
 Adam and Eve grown to maturity and become one with God and been blessed
 in marriage, they would have been the FULL manifestation of God.   But
 they FAILED.  And when Jesus came to restore their failure he was
 MURDERED before he could restore a woman to fulfill Eve's position and
 responsibility, marry her and have Sinless children.

 Christ will return and we will have the Marriage supper of the Lamb...
 you do know the Lamb is symbolic for Christ don't you ?

 Should Jesus come back and marry some religious institution ?  Can he
 fulfill the second blessing and bring sinless children into the world
 through an institution ?

 When it comes to understanding EXACTLY what the messiah must do in order
 to take the dominion of this world away from Satan, you are lost and
 confused.

 But I can help...   Christ will come, born of a woman as predicted in
 Rev. 12:5  and grow up to become a man and then restore a woman and
 Marry her as predicted in Rev 19:2.   Then they will have Sinless
 children.... God's first Grand Children.  Then fallen man can be adopted
 into that family.

 Why is it so difficult to understand that Satan doesn't want the Messiah
 bring sinless children into the world ?  It should be obvious to anyone
 that understands that Satan exists...  the last thing Satan wants is
 lots of sinless children roaming around all over the earth and reeking
 havoc on his kingdom of hell and suffering.  Just look what one sinless
 child did !   Is it any wonder that Satan wanted Jesus dead ?

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Date       08-03-91 22:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> Looks like that's what you did.    I'm sorry I cannot accept
 KK> an TB> irrational doctrine.
 KK>     You  can  not  accept  the  Word  of  God,  or  The  Holy
 KK> Spirit     teachings? Then what do you accept?

 The easiest way to answer this is to recommend that you keep reading my
 messages.

 Just one observation... you seem to want to label everyone that does not
 interpret the scripture like you do, as people who reject the Word of
 God. Is that what you expect those who disagree with your interpretation
 to do with you ?    In other words would it help you if I started
 telling you that you do not accept the  Word of God and the teaching of
 the Holy Spirit ?   You should have learned by now that everyone who
 participates in this conference has a belief that they are convinced is
 correct.  It is just plain silly to start telling everyone that because
 they disagree with my understanding that they are rejecting the word of
 God.  I would suggest you consider this too.

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Date       08-03-91 23:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Boerma
Subject       Messiah

 CB>    Now if I get what your saying, and correct me if I'm wrong,
 CB> but your saying that God is not All-Powerful. Is this what your
 CB> trying to get across?
 CB> If so, the reason used is invalid. Please tell me if this is
 CB> what you mean and I'll tell
 CB> you why your reasoning doesn't work.

 As I was saying...  the nature of the relationship God wants with man is
 based on love.  If love is to exist in a relationship then both parties
 are limited.  Neither can impose a situation upon the other that would
 take away freedom.   Because when freedom is lost a condition of
 slavery is the results.  In a condition of slavery, the relationship
 becomes Master-Slave and the potential for the Parent-Child relationship
 (which is much deeper) would be lost.

 What was God's motivation for creating man ?

 Does God need man ?

Date       08-04-91 07:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject      Christ

 MJ> SEXUAL MISCONDUCT!!!?!?!?!
 MJ> Who designed the sexual organs in the first place???
 MJ> God...therefore, God and Satan are one.

 A house divided against itself cannot stand.

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Date       08-04-91 07:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject     Jesus' Resurrection

 DO> You seem to have a problem with taking Jehovah's word for
 DO> things.

 Now you know it is not Jehovah's word that I'm having trouble with...
 It's your interpretation of Jehovah's word that needs correction.

 DO> You want to decide what is possible and what is not.

 Aren't you doing the same thing ?

 DO> Hetold Adam and Eve to fill the earth. He did not say to overfill
 DO> it as you imply. Why is it so hard for you to accept
 DO> Jehovah's promises? He has demonstrated his ability to perform
 DO> things that may seem like miracles to us. Are you so impressed
 DO> with your own wisdom that
 DO> you are sure that Jehovah is incapable of further doing the
 DO> things that he has promised?

 No.   I am happy that God gave man the ability to think rationally.  I
 find the greater mystery being that God's children can come up with the
 most illogical ideas and expect others to go against reason and accept
 them.    There is no rational reason God would create the Spiritual
 World if not for a place for man to dwell after life on earth.

 Do you realize that the earth is like a womb for your physical body ?
 Just like you left your mother's womb, you will some day leave the
 earth's environment and go into the next world.    You seem to be like
 baby that is screaming "I don't wanta leave"  ...."Put me back in there"

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Date       08-04-91 07:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.7

 MJ> believe God had this planned.  But, the question that pops into
 MJ> my mind is: since God
 MJ> is alledgedly "pure good", how did that which he declared good
 MJ> turn "bad"?

 You have a good question that deserves a good answer.  If you read my
 messages that I will be posting on fall.1 thru fall.7   you will find
 the answer.

 To be brief and give you something to be thinking about, I would like to
 know if you think fire is good or is it evil.   If fire in under control
 it is valuable to keep man warm, transport him through the control of an
 internal combustible engine, cook his food, make synthetic clothing and
 help in the manufacture of building materials... etc.

 However out of control, fire can be quite destructive.

 Now that you think about the potential uses for fire, what would you say
 of me if you knew that I created fire.  Would that make me evil ?  Would
 it make me good ?

 Let me make it easier for you.  Suppose I wrote a program that would
 delete files from your hard drive.  If you used it to kill old messages
 and make room for new stuff, you would appreciate my program... on the
 other hand if you misused my program and wiped out everything on your
 drive, would I be the one to blame ?

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Date       08-04-91 07:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.7

 MJ> if this were all pre-ordained we must face the fact that God
 MJ> deceived man

 When I read that God was Sad after man fell, it tells me that God did
 not preordain the fall.  Would conjuncture that God created man to
 experience happiness.  It simply does not make sense that God would
 ordain something to bring Him grief.

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Date       08-04-91 07:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject     What A Guy!

 DO> Perhaps you could do a little research on the role of the Roman
 DO> Catholic Church during WWII. The Catholics took a lead (though
 DO> they did not at all stand alone) in persecuting Jehovah's
 DO> Witnesses. Thousands were murdered in Germany because
 DO> they refused to join the Catholics and Protestants in supporting
 DO> Hitler. The Catholic Church continues to try to use it's wealth
 DO> to try to stop the flow of truth that comes from Jehovah's people.

 Well, reguardless who is in the wrong, such animosity and hatred is not
 the solution.   One chruch or the other must learn something:

 ROM 12:21   Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

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Date       08-04-91 13:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>     Hahahehe,  Mormonism!  I  haven't had a good laugh like that
 KK> in a     long  time,  How in the word did you come up with that?
 KK> Are you a     Mormon  or  what?  Jesus/God  created all and you
 KK> claim that Adam     was before him? (Colossians 1:16)

 If I were not such a nice Christian I would call you an IDIOT !  But I
 won't.  Don't you know that I am promoting the teachings of Rev. Sun
 Myung Moon ?

 Now to clear up some more of your confusion, notice that Jesus is the
 last Adam.  You have to be extremely irrational to come up with an idea
 that the last Adam created the first one.   Now you got me laughing.

 1CO 15:45   And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living
             soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

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Date       08-04-91 21:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> KK> TB> So where was this lost nature while Jesus was in the

 KK>     I though I answered that.  In the Spirit!

 What Spirit ?  Looks like you came up with 2 gods again.

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Date       08-04-91 21:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  So is there any difference between Jesus and us ?

 KK>    Of course NOT,

 Did you really mean this ?   The rest of your message didn't follow your
 conclusion.

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Date       08-04-91 21:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>    No,  you  will  never  become  a God, nor will you ever be
 KK> equal.

 Well you will probably agree that in some areas I am equal to God.  At
 least my imagination is as big.  You seem to think that is where my
 doctrine is coming from.  < grin >

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Date       08-04-91 21:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  There is nothing degrading in saying Jesus was not God.
 KK>     Then why do all cults not admit this then?

 By the way are you in the 'trinity' cult, or are you a member of the
 'oneness' cult ?

 What is a 'cult' ?  It appears to be a derogative label that people
 who feel superior to others put on the people they feel superior to.

 You know... like when the majority seeks to oppress the minority.

 KK> TB>  Christ, is not God, he is the Mediator between man and
 KK> TB>  God...  haven't
 KK> TB>  you read ?
 KK> TB>  1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator
 KK> TB> between God and
 KK> TB>              men, the man Christ Jesus;
 KK>     He in the Mediator, and is God

 Now you have Jesus in a position greater than God.

 JOH 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
            [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I
            said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 How can this be God talking ?

 I certainly glad I don't have to teach you Boolean algebra.  You have
 a weak understanding of  equal to, lesser than, and greater than.

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Date       08-04-91 21:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>    Sinless Children? No suchthing as sinless anything on this
 KK>    earth as long as there is sin, and Satan. And Jesus didn't
 KK>    Fail  at  ANYTHING. Lets see some scriptures on that one..

 First, I challenge you to find any quote from me that says Jesus failed.
 If you want to draw that conclusion it is up to you.  I clearly said the
 people who were prepared to receive and support Jesus failed their
 mission.  This left Jesus out on a limb just like a coach who might lose
 his team before the Super bowl.  What kind of person would blame the
 coach if his whole team got killed in a plane crash before the final
 game.  Do you think they would select a few folks who came to watch the
 game and then tell the coach he had to play the opponents with such a
 second string ?  In fact Jesus didn't even have a second string. NO one
 would stay awake and pray with him, or keep faith at the final moments.
 Don't you know that if any  of Jesus' apostles would have gone to the
 cross with him, God would have resurrected them also ?

 Next, you say that there is no such thing as a sinless...   I don't
 think I have ever seen any animal committing a sin...  Have you ?

 How about Jesus wasn't he sinless ?

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Date       08-04-91 21:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  Rev. 12:5
 KK>     Sorry, but is is his first comming not the second.

 So the book of Revelation is about the first coming ?  Now you got me
 laughing.   I thought I was dealing with someone who had done a little
 homework...  better talk to your minister on this one.

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Date       08-04-91 21:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>    Jesus  is  comming  to Marry is Church (All followers in
 KK> Christ).

 Ha ha ha   How does one marry an institution...  and which church it is
 ? NO let me guess... could it be the church you belong to ?   They
 really got you duked... how much money have you given them ?

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Date       08-04-91 21:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>    What faith does this belief come from anyway?

 This comes from the revelation Jesus Christ gave to Sun Myung Moon,
 beginning on Easter Sunday 1936 when Rev Moon was 16 years old.

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Date       08-04-91 21:52:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>    You  are  rejecting the scriptures that I have put on your
 KK> screen    with  your beliefs of which I have seen no scripturail
 KK> evidience.    All  you  need  is  a  little time reading the
 KK> Word and Hopefully    receiving  The Holy Spirit.  I'll be the
 KK> first to admit that with    out  his  teaching  man can be
 KK> EASILY mislead. I am NOT comdeming    you,  I'm  writing  to you
 KK> so you may not be one of the misslead.    The  doctrines that I
 KK> have been reading from you are not of God's    Word.   And I'm
 KK> hear to prove it, so you will learn the truth for    yourself.
 KK> Thats  why I write to people who the Spirit tells me    that
 KK> need His help.  Can you understand this?

 I understand your heart and appreciate your motivation.  You are having
 your first encounter with a new revelation that God has given to man.
 Just like the Jewish people found it difficult to understand Jesus'
 message, Christians will have difficulty understanding the truth
 revealed in the last days.   All I can ask is that you pray and try to
 understand the things I am telling you.  Did you ever notice that when
 God works it is usually a giant leap.  For example scientist are looking
 fro the missing link between man and the apes.  But they won't find one.
 Just as there is a great leap in the faith and doctrine between people
 who understand and accept the New Testament, and the people who adhere
 to the Old Testament alone, there will be a similar gulf between
 Christians and the people who encounter and understand God's revelation
 to man in the last days.    I would truly like to say this in a humble
 way:  The same difficulties you are having in understanding my faith can
 be paralleled when you try to explain your faith to a person of the
 Jewish faith.  Lots of things happened and the relationship between man
 and God jumped to a new level because of the work and sacrifice of his
 son. People with a Jewish upbringing have great difficulty understanding
 you.  Likewise you have great difficulty understanding me.

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Date       08-04-91 22:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  Do you think I'm a Jehovah's Witness ?  Better be careful
 KK> TB> they may be
 KK> TB>  listening !
 KK>     No, I think your more like a Mormon.

 I forget that you are new to this conference.  I have been here
 explaining the Divine Principle ( and confronting heresy ) < grin > for
 a year and half.    Just remember this you read my messages:

 The Moon is the Son !

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Date       08-05-91 08:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject      Christ

 MJ> yeah, i just said that...so why don't we just get off the "holy"
 MJ> stuff and

 Do know what conference you are in ?  Open Bible is a conference about
 "Holy Stuff"   If that bothers you and causes you stress, then maybe you
 would fell better if you didn't pass by.

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Date       08-05-91 08:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.7

 MJ> EVERYTHING "good"--"perfect"--then He turnaround and declares
 MJ> the actions of his works "bad".  He has described Himself as
 MJ> "righteous and without the hint of evil"
 MJ> but yet that which eminates from Him is declared evil (?)  IE:
 MJ> mankind is sinful. He made mankind with all of its thoughts. If

 If you become a parent you will know that children sometimes do things
 that are against their parent's wishes.  Do you know that God gave man
 the power of co-creativity ?  Man has a part to play in his own
 perfection.  The rest of the creation grows to perfection automatically
 but man has the responsibility to obey God's word.


 MJ> He as omniscient One knows from the "start" the "finish", why
 MJ> would He start something that turns out "bad, evil,
 MJ> or sinful", especially, if He is "all righteousness and without
 MJ> the hint of evil"??

 First God's knowledge is limited to the possibilities.  He does not know
 the outcome.  He doesn't know if you will be a good little boy or if you
 will flip out and go murder someone. Simple logic would tell you that
 God would ordain nothing to make him grief but if you read about God's
 feelings after man fell or after Saul became king, you will find that
 God was disappointed.  How can anyone be disappointed when something
 they planned and ordained becomes reality ?


 MJ>   Also, since God is omnipotent--nothing is impossible, is it

 Oh contrair !  There are plenty of things that God cannot do.  He can
 make a big rock and he can lift a big rock but can he make a rock so big
 he can't lift it ?

 MJ> being the Source of Evilness?  I hope I haven't confused you,
 MJ> but think about it!

 Well, just like you know whatever you believe, I also know what I
 believe. I doubt either of us will get confused.

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Date       08-05-91 08:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.7

 MJ> ok ok...so we eliminate Calvinism and pre-ordination!  But, that
 MJ> leaves us with the nagging question of how did "evil" and "sin"
 MJ> get introduced into a "closed system of righteousness"--a system
 MJ> of which God is the Creator?

 Obviously it is/was not a closed system.

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Date       08-05-91 10:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.7

 MJ> His mind regarding what was "good and bad" we cannot rationally
 MJ> allow that God is Perfect,

 In a sense I agree with you.  Since Man and God exist in a subject
 object relationship, man's perfection is in a way God's perfection.

 I believed that God designed the system to perfect itself if man would
 follow the instructions.  There is no other way God could have designed
 the system and still experience a relationship of love with man.  If God
 had maintained direct control over man then the level of love between
 man and God could never exceed the master servant relationship.  If you
 think about your relationship with things, the level of happiness you
 can experience is limited by the object.  For example you may have a
 guitar that you play and it brings you a level of happiness.  You also
 may have a dog named spot that you can play with that brings you a
 degree of happiness, but if you want to experience the greatest level of
 joy you have to find an object that is more like yourself.  In the end
 you will seek another human because when you want to philosophize, spot
 can't cope. <grin>

 I suppose you already know that the idea that God may need man is one
 that will make fundamental christians faint.  They have placed God so
 distant that He is unapproachable.   In other words they have put God in
 solitary confinement.  God may very well be sad and lonely and they
 aren't helping by pushing him farther away.

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Date       08-05-91 11:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.7

 MJ> also found it necessary to create mankind).  If God were
 MJ> complete, He would have not needed to create mankind to render
 MJ> Him adoration--isn't that vanity,  too, to just
 MJ> make creatures who will simply give you adoration and praise?
 MJ> By His own standards God is not Perfect, and by reason God is
 MJ> not Perfect.

 I agree with the part about God needing man, but I have to ask you:  Do
 you create out of vanity ?   I write programs because it makes me happy
 to create something that has a useful function and I can share it with
 others.

 If you study how to be successful in business, you will eventually
 realize that you have to find something called the 'win win situation'.
 If you can't find a way to benefit the person you are doing business
 with then you are better off to avoid the deal.  If you are the only
 party to benefit, it will do you more harm in the long run than the
 short term profit you may gain.

 Seems to me God created man with the potential for man to experience the
 same degree of joy that He had hoped to gain by creating man.  What do
 you see in that to indicate vanity ?

 I have to say that responding to you message is a nice change from the
 shallow subjects that I normally have to deal with.  It does appear that
 you have the ability to respond to logic.  You are probably going to get
 a few rebukings if you hang around a while. < grin >

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Date       08-05-91 12:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject     What A Guy!

 DO> Good point. I have at last found something from you to take as
 DO> good counsel.
 DO> Undaunted in my effort to spread the truth though, I must ask
 DO> you this: Where
 DO> does the Unification church stand on involvement in earthly wars
 DO> and politics?

 I'll sum it up like this:  All that is necessary for evil to flourish is
 for good men to do nothing.

 Rev. Moon and the Unification got off to a very bad start with the media
 when the U.C. was just getting started in the U.S. because of the
 involvement with Nixon.  It would been easier and safer for the church
 to avoid the whole issue and stay away from politics, however Rev. Moon
 initiated a campaign in which the members of the church fasted for 7
 days and asked America to Forgive, Love, and Unite.  Rev. Moon had a
 special meeting with the moslem religious leaders before the war in the
 gulf, encouraging them to advise their governments to find a peaceful
 solution.  He also spoke through the Washington Time and requested that
 President Bush delay the invasion for another week after the pull out
 deadline. When Bush invaded anyway, the U.C. supported the president.
 Rev. Moon founded the Washington Times and has spent millions of dollars
 supporting it so that God's voice could be heard by the leadership of
 the most powerful government in the world.

 According to the Divine Principle, everything, including Government is
 in need of restoration.  We cannot sit back and wait on God to fix the
 institution of government.  Rather we must get involved and make the
 foundation for God to work through us.  And I don't mean only the U.C.
 When I say us, I mean people who love God.   We see God working where
 ever men and women of conscious and high moral standards seek to lead
 the world toward righteousness.

 There is no one in the history of America that has come to this country
 and given more support and sacrifice for this country than Rev. Moon.
 But his efforts have not been appreciated, in fact he was thrown in
 prison, and portrayed by the media to be some kind of alien monster.

 Do you suppose we could be persecuted like the Jews have been for
 missing the time of their visitation ?  You know the Messiah should have
 come in the early 1900's ...maybe he did.  Maybe Jesus did visit Rev.
 Moon and give him a mission.  You are going to have the last laugh
 because the revelation of your founder about the return of Christ was
 correct ?

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Date       08-05-91 19:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Spirits of the Dead

 CR>  Spirits exist! Within the invisible spirit realm, there are
 CR> both good and bad spirits,

 Where did they come from ?

 CR> Are they persons who have lived and died on earth ?
 CR>  No, they are not.

 How quickly you forget about Moses and Elijah's appearance with Jesus at
 the mount of transfiguration.



 LUK 10:21    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank
              thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Where is this other place the God is Lord over ?  We know where earth
 is.  Could it be the spirit world ?

 JOH 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so],
           I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 2CO 5:1   For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle
           were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made
           with hands, eternal in the heavens.

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Date       08-05-91 20:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Spirits of the Dead

 CR>  Later, other angels turned bad. These angels noticed the
 CR> good-looking women
 CR> on earth and wanted to have sexual relations with them. So they
 CR> came to the earth and materialized in human bodies. Then they
 CR> took the women for themselves.This
 CR> was against God's purpose. Genesis 6:1,2; Jude 6.

 Guess who was the first to do this ?  You got it !  Lucifer !  Who was
 this woman ?  You got it too !  Eve !

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Date       08-05-91 20:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Spirits of the Dead

 CR>  It also caused much trouble for mankind. The wives of these
 CR> angels bore children, but they were not normal children. They
 CR> grew to be violent and

 Oh, now you are getting silly.  Angels can't get women pregnant.  You
 were sleeping during biology class or you would have known that
 fertilization requires a sperm.  Are you really trying to convince us
 that angels can produce human sperm cells ?  Do you think an angel can
 get you pregnant ?   I mean do you really believe this ?

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Date       08-05-91 20:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Spirits of the Dead

 CR> on earth and wanted to have sexual relations with them. So they
 CR> came to the earth and materialized in human bodies. Then they
 CR> took the women for themselves.This

 Well they actually didn't materialize into human bodies...  humans have
 a spiritual body that can enter into give and take with the spiritual
 realm.   It was Eve's Spiritual Body that entered into the sexual
 relationship with Lucifer, not Lucifer becoming a human.

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Date       08-06-91 09:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>     Terry how many times do I have to answer this. There is
 KK> there will     Allways be ONLY ONE GOD! The SPIRIT the FATHER,
 KK> and SON all makeup     ONE ALLMIGHTY

 Yes but you keep indicating that they EACH have a mind and will of their
 own.  This simply constitutes more that one being.  Now if you say that
 Jesus couldn't think or exist apart from God  or that God couldn't exist
 apart from Jesus, or that the Holy Spirit was not a separate identity
 that could exist apart from the others then I would be inclined to agree
 with you.   However you have not done that.

 If a being, person, or spirit can exist independently and of itself AND
 exhibit a distinct nature of it's own how can you rationally think it is
 something else ?  This is what you clearly have done with God and Jesus.
 You keep trying to convince rational people that these two distinct
 beings are the same.  Sheer nonsense.  They do have a lot in common, but
 so does birds and airplanes.   I suppose you will next try to convince
 me that because they both fly they are the same thing.

 Why don't you take a little time out and discover the differences
 between Jesus and God ?   Are you and your father the same person ?

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Date       08-06-91 10:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB> KK> TB>  So is there any difference between Jesus and us ?
 KK> TB>  KK>    Of course NOT,
 KK> TB>  Did you really mean this ?   The rest of your message
 KK> TB> didn't follow your
 KK> TB>  conclusion.
 KK>     NO! you tock it out of context, that IS NOT the question I
 KK> responed     too.

 Believe me you have enough flaws in your doctrine.  I don't need to take
 your answers out of context to find more.  If I'm having trouble
 understanding your replies, maybe you could chop up the quotes so as to
 help avoid confusion. Thanks

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Date       08-06-91 10:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  By the way are you in the 'trinity' cult, or are you a
 KK> TB> member of the
 KK> TB>  'oneness' cult ?
 KK>    I am NOT a member of a Trinity Cult. I'm a Pentecostal

 So when did this 'oneness' thing get started ?  Never mind, I'll look it
 up myself...

 Humm, interesting stuff...  The grandfather of Pentecostalism is rooted
 in Methodism ( John Westley ).   Then in Topeka, Kansas around 1900 the
 first pentecostal doctrine was formulated. Then in 1906 in Los Angeles a
 three year long meeting was the launching pad of twentieth century
 Pentecostalism.

 This describes you best:  "Pentecostalism has been rigidly
 fundamentalist and anti-intellectual."

 This is exactly what I was telling Walter the other day:  The root of
 our disagreements is the struggle between faith and reason.  Rational
 faith is clearly not a priority in your movement.  Well that sums it
 up...

 Now time for your medicine:

 JOH 4:23    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
             shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the
             Father seeketh such to worship him.

 Since you are worshiping God in Spirit and I am worshiping God in both
 spirit and truth (reason) I suppose God loves me more than your ? <grin>
 Please don't be offended if I have made my point too strongly. I really
 don't believe that God loves me more than you.  If you 'see through'  (
 I hope  Justin doesn't read this part  <grin > )  the words that people
 are posting, you clearly can see they believe God loves them more that
 the person they are writing to.   Take the Jw's for example... what
 could possibly the purpose of their emphasis on knowing God by his first
 name.  When you consider that their relationship with God is on a first
 name basis and yours is not, it is like saying .... "The other day when
 I was at he White House.. George tole me..."   Get the idea ?

 Have you ever noticed that Hell is the place other people go ?  Why do
 other people go to hell ?   Could it be because God loves me more that
 He loves you ?  Since God loves me more, I will go to Heaven and you
 won't...   This is the kind of thinking people have.   Do you know why ?

 The fall of man was a result of Lucifer comparing the love he was
 getting to the love that Adam and Eve were getting.  Since He was in the
 position of Servant and Adam and Eve were in the position of God's
 children, when he compared the love he was getting it seemed  like God
 was loving him less.  God's love for Lucifer hadn't changed but because
 Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, God could experience a
 deeper level of Give and Take with them than He could with Lucifer.

 So what did Lucifer do in order to supplement the love he felt he was
 missing from God ?  He went to Eve and seduced her.  In doing this,
 Lucifer left his proper dwelling and in the process contaminated Eve
 with unprincipled love.  This was the first phase of the Fall of Man.

 If there is one lesson we can learn it is to avoid comparing the love we
 are receiving with the love we think someone else is getting.  This kind
 of thinking results in jealousy.  I suppose Proverbs says it best:

 PRO 6:34    For jealousy [is] the rage of a man: therefore he will not
             spare in the day of vengeance.


 It is ironic that the person who is really closer to God is the one God
 will always sacrifice for those farther away.  So if God really loves
 you more, you will be pushed out/down into hell and asked to suffer more
 than anyone else.  So in the end Hell isn't really the place other
 people go unless they are saving you.

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Date       08-06-91 11:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  think I have ever seen any animal committing a sin...  Have
 KK> TB> you ?
 KK>    Never heard of a Dog killing a child or attacking one?

 And then repenting afterwards ?

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Date       08-06-91 11:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  How about Jesus wasn't he sinless ?
 KK> He is the ONLY HUMAN that will ever has been or EVER will BE.

 1JO 3:2   Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
           appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall
           appear, we shall be like him;
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 I thought you believed scripture?  < grin >

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Date       08-06-91 11:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>     The WORD clearly states the Jesus will be comming from
 KK> heaven     directly, not from birth again. That WAS the first
 KK> comming.

 There is ABSOLUTELY no record in the Old Testament of Christ coming
 twice.  You have to use your imagination to conjuncture such an idea.

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Date       08-06-91 11:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject     Did Jesus have a prepreh

 TB> Hello Terry
 TB> Thanks for your earlier reply. I am glad that you are still
 TB> willing to talk to me.

 You have to go pretty far ( like accusing my wife of fornicating with my
 minister ) in ordered to get on my bad list.  So far only 2 people have
 displayed such a mean spirited that I resulted to shaking the dust from
 my feet.    The other 2 people I have insulated were put there for
 refusing to use their real name... or a name that appeared to be real.
 My BBS doesn't support alias names.

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Date       08-06-91 11:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject     Did Jesus have a prepreh

 TB> you do not mine, may I ask from  what faith or religon you are
 TB> from?

 I believe in the Divine Principle, the teachings of Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

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Date       08-07-91 18:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  between Jesus and God ?   Are you and your father the same
 KK> TB> person ?
 KK>    No, My Spirit and my Body are though. And that is exactly was
 KK> Jesus is to God.

 Irrational.   Your spirit mind and your physical mind has the exact same
 thoughts.  Jesus and God could and did think differently.

 Didn't  Jesus ask God to let him stay alive ?  Clear evidence that Jesus
 had a mind of his own.

 LUK 22:42   Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:

 And here is MUCH greater evidence that Jesus had his own spirit. If
 Jesus' spirit was God then how could Jesus deliver HIS OWN spirit to
 God ?

 LUK 23:46   And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father,
             into thy hands I commend my spirit:

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Date       08-07-91 18:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK>     What doctrine, I don't follow any.

 You have been entering messages containing your doctrine since day one.
 Don't tell me you didn't know it was your doctrine.

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Date       08-07-91 18:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 KK> TB>  This describes you best:  "Pentecostalism has been rigidly
 KK> TB>  fundamentalist and anti-intellectual."
 KK>     You call the Spirit of God un intellectual, Well you also

 Don't get riled up.  I was quoting EErman's Handbook of the History of
 Christianity.   This book is used at every theological seminary in the
 world.  Where should I have gone to get some background.

 When the author of the section on the Pentecostal faith said anti-
 intellectual.  I didn't think he was saying 'stupid' or 'ignorant'.  He
 was only pointing out that it was not important for your faith to be
 supported by reason.  The struggle between faith and reason has been
 going own for a very long time.  Your branch leans toward the emotional
 end of the spectrum while others leans toward the intellectual.

 I suppose you know that mine is in the Center.  Well balanced by
 intellect and emotional experience.  < grin >

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Date       08-07-91 19:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dalton Phelps
Subject       Christ

 DP> Can't any of you people pick up the bible and read it with an
 DP> open mind...and quit making up assumptions.....

 I suppose I have the same question about your ability to read my
 messages.

 DP> There's noway GOD and SATAN are the same person....If you
 DP> believe that then

 See !  You can't read my messages.  I never never even hinted that God
 and Satan are the same person.  You obviously sent this message to the
 wrong person.

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Date       08-07-91 19:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dalton Phelps
Subject     Cults..

 DP> Witnesses are an occult..I'm sorry, but all these man made

 Your reply really makes you look stupid.  Don't you know the word 'cult'
 and 'occult' are not the same ?  What 'occult' do you belong to ?

 DP> religions are nothing but a lie from satan...I happen to believe
 DP> in my Lord Jesus Christ...and I believe that anyone who believes
 DP> and confesses his sins is saved...

 This is obliviously not all you believe.  Why don't you post some of
 those ridiculous ideas about a virgin having a baby, or God setting up
 the murder of His son, or the really wild one about floating in the air
 and let me take a crack at your man made nonsense nonsense.

 DP> You people are all the same...you all have the answer and if
 DP> noone follows you're exact ways you point the finger at
 DP> them.....

 Your message is the one pointing the finger and calling folks names.

 Mat 7:1

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Date       08-07-91 19:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Reynolds
Subject    Shame On Who?

 PR> When I first got involved in
 PR> these exorcisms I permitted the demons to speak. When they did,
 PR> they always tried to make us feel sorry for them as if we were
 PR> really hurting them by making them vacate their "home." This
 PR> attitude is a ruse of Satan. Even the demons in the man
 PR> possessed by the legion tried to make Jesus feel sorry for them
 PR> for punishing
 PR> them "before their time"  and begged Jesus to find them a new
 PR> home. There was another fellow in this echo who took great
 PR> offense at some of us mentioning the activity of demons -another
 PR> of Satans's greatest ruse is the fact that many do not believe
 PR> in him and he can continue to work covertly.

 You are 100% correct.  I have never had anything to do with exorcism but
 my experience and understanding of the covert work of Satan is enough to
 recognize that you know what you are talking about.

 The disbelief in spiritual activity of the deceased is exactly like what
 communism did.  When they said there was no God the idea of Satan was
 cast aside also.  This created the perfect place for Satan to hide. He
 went where they didn't believe he exist and got away with murdering over
 500 million people. That was the cost, in human lives, of the experiment
 with the communist doctrine.

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Date       08-07-91 20:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rafae'l Nathan
Subject    Spirits of the dead

 RN> You should read the rest of the bible where we are commanded not
 RN> to communcate with dead spirits.

 I have heard this but I can't find it.  Can you be more specific ?

 I think this is good advice because most people who have died were not
 saints and this would mean that the chances of getting good advice would
 be rather slim.   However I do wonder how I would react to an event like
 the one described in Matt 27:53 ?   You do have access to the book
 called the New Testament don't you ?  < grin >           Shalom

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Date       08-07-91 20:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    What is a Christian?

 DO> I have expressed my grievance with you on several occasions for
 DO> what I precieve to be a "running ahead" of Jehovah on your part.

 I like that idea: "running ahead of Jehovah" !    Yes, in my opinion
 that is exactly what Rev. Moon is teaching.  Can you come up with any
 scripture that discourages man to take the initiative against evil ?
 Do you really think that if Jesus returns and finds the world cleaned up
 he would be sad, disappointed or angry with us ?   I simply can't
 understand the attitude that says:  'Leave the room a mess... else the
 maid won't have anything to do and she could lose her job.'

  Jesus isn't worried about losing his job !

 DO> I have repeatedly asked you by what authority you contradict the
 DO> commands given to Christians from the Bible.

 I have never agreed with you that I have contradicted any commandment
 given by God.  It is your MISS-interpretation of those commandments that
 I sometimes oppose.

 DO> What did Jesus' words to Peter instructing him to put away his
 DO> sword not mean?

 It meant that the foundation for Jesus success in establishing the
 Kingdom of God on earth at that time was lost.

 DO> What did Jesus mean when he said that those who
 DO> live by the sword will
 DO> perish by the sword? When Jesus said that his kingdom was NO
 DO> PART of the world,
 You must not know what the Lord will do when he returns.   Let me look
 it up for you:

 ISA 11:4    But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove
             with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite
             the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of
             his lips shall he slay the wicked.
 MAT 10:34   Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
             to send peace, but a sword.
 LUK 12:53   The father shall be divided against the son, and the son
             against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the
             daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her
             daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother
             in law.

 DO> what part of the world can a follower or Moon have and still be a
 DO> Christian? When he said that we must be "without spot from the
 DO> world" how can involvement
 DO> with the worldly political system be practiced and one still be
 DO> in favor with Jehovah and his son Jesus?

 We want it ALL !  Yes we are greedy for God.  There is no place that is
 going to remain sacred for Satan.

 It appears to me you are like the other guy that wants to give a lot of
 things over to Satan.  Can we let Satan have the government, the
 schools, the businesses, and the media ?   You apparently have attempted
 to restore at least one of those areas with a publication called the
 Watchtower. Do you really think God wants to sit around peacefully at
 the Kingdom Hall and meet a few folks once or twice a week while Satan
 is out there dominating the rest of the world ?

 DO> Jesus said that you could recognize his followers because they
 DO> would have love among themselves. Could you go to Iraq and kill
 DO> a Iraqi soldier if he was a member of the Unification Church?

 LUK 9:47    And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart,

 Let me ask you: "Do you still beat your wife ?"

 Just answer yes or no.

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Date       08-07-91 20:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Intelligent Plan or Natur

 AS> It's not the logic that's flawed

 Thank God....   or whoever I got it from ! <Grin>

 AS>- only your ability to comprehend the ability
 AS> of "natural selection" to pick out the good from the bad, thus
 AS> increasing the likelihood of something that is otherwise very
 AS> highly improbable to be probable.

 So when folks dig us up in 10,000 years and find the horse carriages,
 Model t's, VW's, Chevrolet's, and Mercedes, then conclude that these are
 all modes of transportation evolved through natural selection, should
 they assume that this happened without creative input from an outside
 force ?

 All I would like you to do is recognize that evolution does not advance
 without an input from an external consciousness.

 AS> If you let those million monkeys type just a few characters,
 AS> take the best of these ("selection"), and then let them type a
 AS> few more characters and select those that add well to the
 AS> previous best, etc., you will have an intelligmessage.

 See you are taking charge of the situation and putting intelligent
 management into the system.

 AS>  This is the way evolution works.  You would be selecting the
 AS> best messages (based on appearing intelligent) as nature selects
 AS> the best mutations, based on their survivibility.

 I have to conclude that you have simply replaced the term God with your
 term 'nature'.   We probably agree after all.

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Date       08-08-91 07:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Christ part 2/3

 EM> >Sounds like you came up with two gods again
 EM>
 EM> This can be explained by Trinitarianism--Jesus, Jehovah and the
 EM> Holy Spirit

 I'm sure it can.  This original question was posed to a Pentecostal that
 believes in the oneness doctrine.

 While you are explaing how three separate identities are relly one
 identity, work these scriptures:

 MAR 13:32    But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not
              the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
              Father.

 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
             [him] in spirit and in truth.

 JOH 8:54    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
             it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he
             is your God:

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;

 COL 3:1     If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which
             are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 JOH 5:19    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I
             say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what
             he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
             these also doeth the Son likewise.

 1JO 4:14    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the
             Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 GEN 1:27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God
             created he him; male and female created he them.

 2CO 4:4     In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of
             them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
             gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine
             unto them.


 ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
             afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
             me.

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Date       08-08-91 07:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject     Christ part 2/3

 MS> Well, gee, aren't we impressed by your Christ-likeness,
 MS> particularly since, by your own testimony of promoting Moon's
 MS> (1:124/1002.502)

 You know it is the mis-guided interpretations of well meaning believers
 that I reject NOT Christ's teachings.

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Date       08-08-91 07:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject     Christ part 2/3

 MS> You did.  But Terry refuses to see things clearly, or to see
 MS> things that correctly refute the teachings of his beloved
 MS> "Perfect Father"...

 You can have a 'Perfect Father' TOO !       Once you can grasp the
 possibility that God's goal is to have grand children.  The rest of the
 Divine Principle will be easy to understand.

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Date       08-08-91 07:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Boerma
Subject        Messiah

 CB> TB>  What was God's motivation for creating man ?
 CB>
 CB>    In all honest, I don't know. Could it be were like a work of
 CB> art to him?

 But what motivates/inspires an artist ?   You seem to be hinting that
 art has no real/useful purpose ?

 CB> TB>  Does God need man ?
 CB>
 CB>    No. God doesn't need us to continue, He existed before man.
 CB> He wants our love,

 How is love experienced ?  Can God feel love if He has no one to relate
 to ?   Why is solitary confinement one of the most strict forms of
 punishment ?    Do you thing God could ever be happy while living alone
 in solitary confinement ?

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Date       08-08-91 08:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dan Singleton
Subject    HUMANS/ANGELS

 DS> many stories about this happening in satanic cults; that is,
 DS> demons impregnating human women who are members/victims of the
 DS> cult.  Does anyone have an opinion (or, better yet, a
 DS> theological exposition) on this?

 Spirits cannot produce human sperm cells.  There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY a
 woman can get pregnant as a result of intercourse with a spiritual
 being.

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Date       08-08-91 15:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     ADAM.3

 WC>     You can find no evidence from Scripture that God required
 WC> Cain to humble himself before Abel and obey him. This is
 WC> extra-biblical and cannot be found in Scripture.

 John 16:12 and 16:25

 GEN 4:7     If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou
             doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall
             be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

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Date       08-08-91 15:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     ADAM.3

 WC> accept his. It was jealousy which drove Cain to murder. God even

 Cain was placed exactly in the position Lucifer was in.  Lucifer too was
 jealous and his jealousy resulted in Adam's death.  This is not
 complicated.  You can understand the parallel.

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Date       08-08-91 15:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     ADAM.3

 WC>     Not possible. The Scripture speaks of the time element. You
 WC> have ignored that aspect. Your teaching is extra-biblical on
 WC> this point.

 John  16:12 and 16:25

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Date       08-08-91 15:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     ADAM.3

 WC>     Academic speculation. The time element was not right.
 WC> Messiah was not scheduled to come for several millennia. The
 WC> teaching is extra- biblical.

 Now how can you know this ?   Why do you assume the loving heart of God
 did not want immediately rescue his fallen children.  What is God's
 purpose of asking Cain and Abel to make an offering unless it was a step
 toward man's salvation ?   You teaching is irrational, illogical and not
 to be found anywhere in scripture.   Christ DID NOT have to wait several
 millennia if the foundation could have been made sooner.

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Date       08-08-91 15:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     ADAM.3

 WC>     God is omnipotent. He certainly has the power and capability
 WC> to work through whomever He chooses. Your statement denies that
 WC> God is omnipotent and is therefore not biblical.

 This goes against your teachings.  You said that God would not force
 anyone.....

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Date       08-08-91 15:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject      MESSAGE FROM REV. M. M

 JT> I have one question which comes to mind at once, which I hope
 JT> you will not only answer but--if you have the time and
 JT> energy--expand upon.  I gather that, since you expect the Second
 JT> Coming of Christ (though in terms somewhat
 JT> different from
 JT> my own expectation), you must also believe that God the Father
 JT> raised Him from the dead.  Is this your belief?  And if so,
 JT> could you expound a little on this subject, and on its
 JT> significance?

 No, I don't believe Jesus was God in the traditional trinitarian sense.
 I believe God did resurrect Jesus and would have resurrected any of his
 followers that would have gone to the cross with him.  The resurrected
 Jesus was different, and not easily recognized by the people that knew
 him.  He apparently walked through walls and did other things like
 levitate that a physical body cannot do.  Jesus resurrected form was
 much like that of Moses and Elijah who were seen with him on the mount
 of transfiguration.


 JT> I must confess to you that I have a "hidden agenda" in asking
 JT> this, but it is in no way a hostile or malicious one.

 Hey,  we all read messages just looking for a place to insert our
 flavour of heresy < chuckle >.

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Date       08-08-91 15:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.1

 WC>     Terry, you are repeating what other people have said. Show
 WC> us with Scripture references that it took Noah 120 years to
 WC> build the ark.

 I suppose this is where it comes from.  I don't see why this is
 important unless you have some 'inside scoop' you are about to expound
 upon...

 GEN 6:3     And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with
             man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an
             hundred and twenty years.

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Date       08-08-91 15:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.1

 WC>     Terry, all this is extra-biblical. You cannot find these
 WC> concepts in Scripture.

 John 16:12 and 16:25

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Date       08-08-91 15:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.1

 WC>     Genesis 7:24.

 I must be making progress if this is the only problem you are haveing
 these days.  < grin >  Either that or your fingers are wearing out ! ha

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Date       08-08-91 15:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     NOAH.1 part 1/2

 WC>     Wrong again. Satan attempted to thwart God's plan by working
 WC> through Cain. By tempting Cain to kill Abel he removed both
 WC> individu- als from any possibility of line of succession. God
 WC> just simply had a third child born to Adam and the plan
 WC> continued.

 But you haven't been keeping up...  The messiah would have come to
 Abel's family.  But as you already have seen with Jesus, dead men don't
 have children.

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Date       08-08-91 16:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Donald Sisco
Subject    ONLY 144,000

 DS>  Come on guys, isn't there even ONE Jehovah's Witness here (or
 DS> anywhere) who can produce Biblical proof that ONLY 144,000
 DS> people will ever be allowed to enter Heaven?

 Looks like heaven is sold out !  They have all gone.

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Date       08-08-91 16:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.8

 WC>     The purpose of the First Advent was that Jesus was to die
 WC> and shed His blood for the redemption of mankind. That is what
 WC> the prophe- cies of the Old Testament say. They very clearly
 WC> speak of His death at Calvary. His mission was to be a sin
 WC> sacrifice for all of mankind.

 Extra-Biblical and Irrational !

 1JO 3:8   For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
           destroy the works of the devil.

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Date       08-08-91 16:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     RESTORE.8

 WC> TB>1. The two-thousand-year period from Adam to Abraham was
 WC> invaded TB>by Satan, but was completed by the victory of
 WC> Abraham's family.
 WC>     If this is the case then why do you insist that Abraham blew
 WC> it when God told him to make the sacrifice of the animals and
 WC> the birds were not divided?

 The key here is Abraham's * FAMILY *.   Jacob was the first person to
 bring a substantial victory for God.  You must understand Jacob's course
 if you want to know the formula course for restoration.

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Date       08-08-91 22:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject    HUMANS/ANGELS

 PB>     They are hybrids.  The were physical beings that were a
 PB> cross between humans and angels (while the were physical
 PB> beings).  Think of it as the difference between a horse and a
 PB> donkey-- mule.

 Where did they go ?  Do you have any picutres.  I don't allow gif files
 on my bbs but if you have one of this 'hybrid' PLEASE upload it anyway!

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Date       08-09-91 07:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject     Did Jesus have a prepreh

 EM> If I understand correctly, you thus believe that Moon is the
 EM> second coming of Christ.  Why so?  You have evidence?
 EM>
 EM> I think I asked you this once before, but never got back in time
 EM> to get your reply (if any).

 Divine Principle doesn't say Rev. Moon is Christ.  It teaches that we
 are living in the last days and that Christ will return born of woman.
 It is up to the reader to pray and reach his or her own personal
 conclusion about who will fulfill this role.

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Date       08-09-91 07:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    What Is A Christian?

 DO> and to expend ourselves in the ministry. He specifically told us
 DO> to refrain from involvement in the affairs of the world.

 If you really believed that you would quit knocking on doors and just
 leave everyone alone.  You are 'running ahead' of Jesus and trying to
 save people yourself.... < grin >

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Date       08-09-91 12:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Monkeys

 GT> TB> Well I do understand variation.  But when you
 GT> TB> start comparing me to a monkey, I really have
 GT> TB> trouble believing he is my ancestor.  Don't you?
 GT>
 GT> Monkeys are NOT ancestral to man. Man, Apes and
 GT> monkeys had a common ancestor.

 I still don't feel confortable with my inlaws ? <grin>    Why didn't God
 give them the commandment that he gave to us ?

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Date       08-09-91 21:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ part 1/2

 WC>     A personal must absolutely make a choice. However, no man
 WC> can be saved by his own efforts. Scripture tells us that our

 I will agree that no man can be saved by his own efforts ALONE.
                                                          ^^^^^

 But I cannot overlook Matt 7:21 and other such scripture that tells me
 that man has a portion of responsibility that exceeds simply believing.
 Belief must be translated into action and that action does result in
 either developing or losing one's relationship with God...  Just as Adam
 and Eve's action lead them to lose their relationship with God, and so
 did it in Sodom and Gomorrah, and with the angels that fell with
 Lucifer  etc.  etc.

 It is simple logic that if salvation were up to God alone then man
 would have been restored a long long time ago and we wouldn't even be
 talking about this now.

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Date       08-09-91 21:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ part 1/2

 WC>     There is not reference or implication anywhere in Scripture
 WC> in either Testament which will support the view that Adam and
 WC> Eve fell as a result of sexual conduct. They were man and wife.

 They were naked and unashamed before they fell and then after the fall
 they were ashamed of their nakedness.  There must be some connection
 between what they did and the parts of their body they were ashamed of
 afterwards.

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Date       08-09-91 21:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ part 1/2

 WC>     Where does it say that God intended Him to have a wife?

 GEN 2:18     And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should
              be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

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Date       08-09-91 21:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ part 2/2

 WC>     There is no need for me to wonder. I already know. The Bride
 WC> of Christ is the church--the body of believers--the body of
 WC> Christ.

 How does an institution bear children for you ? How can sinless children
 come into the world through the relationship between a man and an
 institution.  Why doesn't the King of King deserve a Queen of Queens.

 WC> relationship closer than that of man and wife. Jesus was showing WC>
 us that our relationship with God is to be very intimate one.

 Yes but without a wife, man can never learn and experience the feminine
 nature of God.  Without a husband, a woman cannot learn and experience
 the masculine nature of God.  Your spouse is your second messiah through
 which you can discover the heart of God that is not familiar to you.

 Marriage will be the highest level of spirituality after the marriage
 supper of the Lamb takes place.  And it already took place in 1960.


 WC> There were several other relationships which were given. There
 WC> was the parent child relationship and there was also the sibling
 WC> relationship.

 Yes the family is the university that God created to teach people all
 different kinds of love.  A person cannot go to the highest realms of
 the spiritual world without experiencing all levels of love.  This is
 why it is crucial to marry and experience conjugal love, then experience
 parental love. Then the big one which scares you:  Grand Parental love.

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Date       08-09-91 21:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ part 2/2

 WC>     We can resolve most questions about the Godhead if we
 WC> properly understand the dual nature of Jesus. When we read a

 But you and I have a dual nature also. It could be developed/restored
 so that we become Christ-like.  The real difference between Jesus and
 You and I is that his spiritual nature was more developed.  That is a
 big difference, but we WERE created with the potential to become Sons of
 God ourselves.    When you think it is impossible and it can't be done,
 you could be limiting God.  Anyway it is my goal to become perfect.
 What is your goal ?  Remember to read  Mat 7:7

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Date       08-09-91 22:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ part 2/2

 WC>     I have made 30 Scriptural references demonstrating that
 WC> Jesus was both God and man and therefore had a dual nature.
 WC> Thirty such refer- ences should be sufficient to demonstrate
 WC> that the Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus had a dual nature
 WC> and was both God and man. The doctrine is not extra-biblical.

 Ok,  I agree that Jesus had a dual nature, and his spiritual nature was
 God-like.  And God could dwell in Jesus, but God was also an external
 being that did many things apart from Jesus.  What gives me trouble when
 I hear your doctrine is that it seem to 'bottle God up' and limit Him.
 ....like when Jesus was walking around God had to follow along and could
 not be anywhere else.  Just like I once told you... God could be like
 water.   90% of your body is water but Walter is not pure water.  Jesus
 may have been %100 God but God was not %100 Jesus.   God is much bigger
 than Jesus, that's why I keep trying to show you that Jesus and his
 Bride could be a more complete picture of God.  God can more fully dwell
 in a marriage and appear to man as parents.  Can you understand this
 parental concept of God ?

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Date       08-09-91 22:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject     Everlasting Lifef

 TB> Then how do you understand Psalms 37:29 "The righteous
 TB> themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever
 TB> upon it."

 Just like I would if it said the Koreans would inherit the earth and
 possess it themselves and reside forever upon it.

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Date       08-09-91 22:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC> I Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and
 WC> blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

 I though you took this one literal:

 PSA 37:29   The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for
             ever.

 Which verse are you going to take literal ?

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Date       08-09-91 22:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC>     The Bible is quite clear about believers receiving a new
 WC> body which is incorruptible and is immortal. What I say is not
 WC> extra- biblical but has been taught from the very beginning.

 So was Jesus resurrected in the flesh, and shall the believers in Jesus
 who have died be resurrected in the flesh ?

 What if a believer fell off a boat part of him and was eaten by the fish
 you ate for dinner last night ?  When the resurrection happens who will
 get what ?

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Date       08-09-91 22:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC> TB>I think I am finally beginning to see the difference in our
 WC> think- TB>ing. Every time I try to teach you something you don't
 WC> understand TB>you label it as Extra-Biblical.
 WC>
 WC>     No, when you tell me something that contradicts Scripture
 WC> then I say it is extra-biblical.

 No, when something contradicts another's belief's like when scientist
 first started saying the earth was not flat, they were not understood
 and thus labeled as teaching extra-biblical doctrine.   Nothing has
 changed the same tactics that have been to oppose higher understanding
 throughout history are still used today.

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Date       08-09-91 22:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC>     You may deem it irrational but it is nevertheless in
 WC> Scripture.

 Not quite, just in your interpretation of scripture.   Can't you
 understand that scripture is quite like an automobile accident...
 everyone that sees it notices something different and had a different
 point of view ?

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Date       08-09-91 22:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC>     Then why all the prophecies telling us how He would die?

 Then why all the prophecies telling us He would become Lord of Lord and
 King of Kings ?


 It should be easy to understand that if he people had accepted Jesus,
 Prophecy #1 would have been fulfilled and if they rejected Jesus
 Prophecy #2 would be fulfilled.  There was not any prophecy of Christ
 coming twice.  Ask any Jewish person how many messiah's are suppose to
 come.

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Date       08-09-91 22:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC>     You have repeatedly stated that Jesus did not come to die.
 WC> Yet the prophets certainly prophesied not only that He would but
 WC> very accurate details of how that death would occur. I have
 WC> offered 17 different prophecies concerning His death.

 I challenge you to see how many prophecies like this one you can come up
 with:

 ISA 9:6     For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
             government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be
             called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The
             everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 ISA 9:7     Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall
             be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
             to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with
             justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD
             of hosts will perform this.

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Date       08-09-91 22:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC>     Yes, it would. But the way to New Orleans did not change
 WC> regard- less of my actions. God's plan for man has not been
 WC> altered in any way. It remains the same from the beginning.


 LUK 13:34   O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and
             stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have
             gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her
             brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!


 1CO 2:8    Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they
            known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

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Date       08-09-91 22:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.1

 WC>     I am sure that you believe that. However, you cannot find
 WC> such a teaching in Scripture. You can find that God has made
 WC> provision for children but never for grandchildren. That is
 WC> because God wants only children. He has no need for
 WC> grandchildren. He has and will have only children.

 Then simply tell me why God told Adam and Eve to multiply.

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Date       08-09-91 22:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.3

 WC> TB>And you are waiting on Jesus to retrun like the space
 WC> shuttle?
 WC> TB>Illogical!   Highly Irrational!  Unbelivable!
 WC>
 WC>     What saith the Scripture? You had now said that you do not
 WC> reject Scripture. The test of rejection or acceptance is whether
 WC> Scripture is rejected.


 I thought Scripture says that Christ will come as a thief in the night ?
 If he comes back like the space shuttle, it will be on the evening
 news... they may even break in on the soaps... and everyone will know
 about it.   What is the purpose of this scripture if Christ's return is
 really going to so obvious:

 MAR 13:33   Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time
             is.

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Date       08-09-91 22:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.3

 WC> his belly on the ground when he jumped." I have already posted a
 WC> number of Scripture references (17) which tell us that Jesus
 WC> would certainly die and the events surrounding His death. A what
 WC> if state- ment is academic. The Scripture clearly foretold of
 WC> His crucifixion hundreds of years before it happened. These
 WC> prophecies were fulfilled in exact detail and were NOT symbolic.
 WC> They were literal in each case and their fulfillment was literal
 WC> in each case.

 How about this prophecy : ?

 GEN 4:6     And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is
            thy countenance fallen?
 GEN 4:7     If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Why do you want to paint a picture that makes God responsible for Jesus
 death ?   Who determined Cain's fate ?  Who determined Adam and Eve's
 fate ?

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Date       08-09-91 22:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       RESTORE.3

 WC> TB>So were those of the Jewish people who could not see Jesus
 WC> for who TB>he really was.
 WC>
 WC>     One important difference, Terry. They were not filled with
 WC> the Holy Spirit.

 So what is the conclusion ?  Did God with hold the Holy Spirit so they
 would MURDER Christ ?

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Date       08-10-91 16:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Johnson
Subject    SPIRITS OF THE DEAD

 GJ> I would VERY MUCH like to SEE a quote from you where it says
 GJ> that Satan had sex with Eve. I don't beleive it and wish to see
 GJ> the scriptural verse that says that he did.

 GEN 3:13    And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that]
 thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did
 eat.

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Date       08-10-91 16:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject     Spirits of the Dead

 CR>TB>  How quickly you forget about Moses and Elijah's appearance
 CR>TB>  with Jesus at  the mount of transfiguration.

 CR> It was a vision, Terry.

 So was the appearance of the resurrected Jesus.

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Date       08-10-91 16:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject     Spirits of the Dead

 CR> This does not give us any indication that people who have once
 CR> lived and died on earth will go to heaven.

 Well, I don't know if your belief that the dead are simply sleeping is a
 result of someone's fear of dieing, or their fear of being spooked by
 spirits, but the spiritual world is real and people do go there when
 they die...   and some people living in the physical world can perceive
 and communicate with spiritual beings that once lived on the earth.

 If you want to know something important, dig into Hebrews 11:40.

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Date       08-10-91 17:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject     Spirits of the Dead

 CR> Terry, they materialized into human bodies. They had sexual
 CR> relations with the women and sons were born to them. What would
 CR> you say?

 I have to say that you got greater faith than I do if you can believe
 something like this.

 The truth is:   Humans have both physical and spiritual bodies. When
 they die only the spiritual body remains.  Spirits do not have physical
 bodies, and they cannot and have never materialized into physical
 bodies.  Spiritual beings cannot get physical beings pregnant even
 though the spiritual bodies of humans can have contact with the
 spiritual bodies of spirits.. like fighting in the case of Jacob, and
 intercourse as in the case of Eve and Lucifer.

 It is not difficult to understand this.  Simply recognize that you
 consist of 2 separate parts.  You have a

 1 mind that is invisible, insubstantial, transcendent of time and space

 2. body that is visible, substantial, and limited to time and space

 Through your mind you can relate to an idea or emotion that is also
 immaterial, invisible, and transcendent of time and space.

 Through you body you can relate to the physical world through your 5
 physical senses - sight, smell, touch, sound, taste.


 Likewise you have a physical body and a spiritual body.  Through your
 physical body you relate to the physical world and seek to satisfy your
 physical needs like food, clothes, shelter... through Science and
 Technology.   Through your spiritual body, you relate to the spiritual
 world and seek to satisfy your spiritual needs like truth, beauty, and
 justice...  through Religion and Philosophy.

 Why do you want to believe that when your physical part/side gets old
 and dies, your spiritual side/part will go to sleep or become
 unconscious? When you go to sleep at night does your mind shut down ? Or
 does it dream and continue to stay aware and even wake you in the case
 of a fire or burglars ?  Some people have such a clock like mind for
 waking up you can tell them to wake up at 7 minutes till 4 am. and they
 can do it.

 It really is a mystery to me why anyone would come up with an idea that
 one's knowledge or ignorance, or one's belief or disbelief would change
 reality.  You seem to think that since you believe a certain way, you
 will not remain in a state of unconsciousness forever while others who
 do not accept your belief will forever snooze.

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Date       08-10-91 17:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Spirits of the Dead

 CR>  Bad people on earth will also be done away with. Psalm 37:9,

 Better not lay off the Police force just yet.

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Date       08-10-91 21:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.1 part 1/3

 WC>     You cannot reference a single Scripture that the succession
 WC> was to pass through Ham.

 You can't prove it wasn't either.

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Date       08-10-91 21:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.1 part 1/3

 WC> TB>God took Abraham as indemnity to restore Satan's having taken
 WC> Ham, TB>the second son, who had been in a position to be loved
 WC> by God.
 WC>     You cannot demonstrate this from Scripture. All three sons
 WC> of Noah were in an equal position to love God and all were
 WC> equally loved by God who is no respecter of persons. The problem
 WC> was not that God loved or favored one above the other it was the
 WC> individual response to God.

 When the Israelites fled from Egypt, God smote all the first-born of the
 Egyptians, and also of their cattle(Ex 12:29).  Also, the Bible says
 that God "loved" the second son, Jacob, and "hated" the first son, Esau,
 even while they were still in their mother's womb (Rom 9:13). And in the
 case of Jacob's blessing of his grandsons, Ephraim and Manasseh, Jacob
 blessed them by crossing his hands so that the right hand lay on the
 head of Ephraim, the second son (Gen 48:14).  In each of these cases is
 an example of how God place the second-born child in the favored
 position.

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Date       08-10-91 21:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.1 part 2/3

 WC>     Scripture does not teach, allude, or hint at the sacrifice
 WC> repre- senting a horizontal condition. It is extra-biblical.

 LUK 10:27   And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
             all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
             strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as
             thyself.

 You should be able to see it here.   Everytime you can't understand
 something you simply label it Extra-biblical.  Were you around when they
 made the same accusation of scientist who said the earth was NOT flat ?

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Date       08-10-91 21:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.1 part 2/3

 WC> TB>In Noah's time, the raven symbolized Satan, who was looking
 WC> for an TB>opportunity to invade Noah's family right after the
 WC> Flood Judgment TB>(Gen 8:7).
 WC>
 WC>     Where in Scripture do I find this concept?

 A raven is the bird of prey:

 GEN 15:11   And when the fowls came down upon the carcases

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Date       08-10-91 21:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      ADAM.3

 WC> I can assure you that I can bear anything you have to say.

 But can you understand ?  Ask God for verification.

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Date       08-10-91 21:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     NOAH.1

 WC>     Not likely. Messiah was not scheduled to come for about 4000
 WC> years. Scripture says He came in the fullness of time. There is
 WC> no scriptural evidence that Messiah would have come at any other
 WC> time that He did.

 There is one proof and it will come when you understand the deep love
 and parental heart of God.

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Date       08-10-91 22:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.2 part 1/2

 WC>     Sorry. It was only necessary for any one of the sons of Noah
 WC> to establish a relationship with God. Salvation was and is on a
 WC> personal basis. The relationship must be one on one with God.

 Yes because the people did not support Jesus to establish a family and
 expand the building blocks for the Kingdom of Heaven to the family
 level.  You really can't go to heaven by yourself.  Heaven is for
 couples only.  Did you know that Jesus was married a few years ago ?
 His wife is still living on earth.  Talk about an age difference !

 LUK 23:43   And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day
             shalt thou be with me in paradise.

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Date       08-10-91 22:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.2 part 1/2

 WC>     Apparently you missed something here. You can absolutely not
 WC> demonstrate that Ham was shamed when he saw Noah naked. There is
 WC> not hint of such a thing in Genesis or in any other passage
 WC> anywhere in the Bible. The thought is extra-biblical. Neither
 WC> was Shem and Japheth made ashamed. They rather respected their
 WC> father and took actions to prevent him from being embarrassed.

 You really put your foot in your mouth here.   Now tell us why Noah woke
 up and cursed Ham for his actions ?

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Date       08-10-91 22:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.2 part 2/2

 WC>
 WC> TB>Upon seeing his father's nakedness, Ham was similarly ashamed
 WC> and TB>covered him up.
 WC>
 WC>     To the contrary. Ham was not ashamed and did NOT cover him
 WC> up.
 WC> TB>From the dispensational viewpoint, the fact that Ham felt
 WC> ashamed TB>of his father's nakedness
 WC>
 WC>     You certainly cannot find in Scripture that Ham felt shame
 WC> at his father's nakedness. This is extra-biblical.
 WC>
 WC> TB>and directed his brothers to cover him
 WC>
 WC>     This is not found in Scripture. The Bible does NOT say that
 WC> Ham directed his brothers to cover Noah. In any case Ham was not
 WC> in a position to order his brothers to do anything. Shem was the
 WC> eldest and held the higher position.

 It just occurred to me that you have never read about this... let me
 post it so you can know what we are talking about here:

 GEN 9:22    And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his
 father, and told his two brethren without. GEN 9:23    And Shem and
 Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and
 went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their
 faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. GEN
 9:24    And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had
 done unto him. GEN 9:25 And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of
 servants shall he be unto his brethren.

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Date       08-10-91 22:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    NOAH.2 part 2/2

 WC>     Right. That is because the concept you are putting forward
 WC> is not contained is Scripture. It is all extra-biblical. What
 WC> you have been espousing was NEVER God's plan for man's
 WC> redemption.

 So it appears that your theory is that God was really just sitting
 around for a few thousand years then decided one day it was time to send
 Jesus and get him killed and that would solve the problems He had been
 observing.

 I tell you the truth is that God immediately started to set up
 conditions for His children to be restored IMMEDIATELY after the fall
 and has continued even till the moment you are reading this message.  NO
 real parent even in the fallen world would abandon their children for
 months and years after one went missing ...how much more does a perfect
 parent like God want to see His children return home ?

 You just don't know the true heart of God.  God's love for His children
 is much greater than you realize.  In fact God is deeply suffering just
 as your heart would be breaking if your children were kidnapped,
 tortured and were still being held captive by a hostile enemy.

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Date       08-10-91 22:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      RESTORE.8

 WC> Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with
 WC> blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 MAT 9:6     But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth
 to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take
 up thy bed, and go unto thine house. MAR 2:10    But that ye may know
 that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to
 the sick of the palsy,)

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Date       08-04-91 07:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         William Gordon
Subject    RESTORE.7

 WG> Please spare us the commentary on _Divine Principle_!

 Are you requesting or suggesting that I should leave this conference?

 What have you got to tell us that makes sense ?  The wild idea that a
 virgin woman had a baby ?   That God set up the murder of his son ?
 That you are soon going to float away into the stratosphere ?

 Go ahead ..make me laugh !

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Date       08-04-91 08:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dan Scarborough
Subject    RESTORE.8

 DS> Even if a "sriptural justification" of this type of discussion
 DS> can be made and accepted by Christians, how will that agreement
 DS> serve to bring even one non-believer to the acceptance of sin in
 DS> his personal life, a repentance of that sin to God, faith in
 DS> Jesus as the "covering" for that sin, and a rebirth in Christ
 DS> Jesus?
 DS> I ask these questions in love, not to antagonize, but beacause I
 DS> love the "lost" and recognize that they very well can remain
 DS> "lost" if they are dissuaded from accepting the Gospel because
 DS> they observe "Christians in Conflict" with one another.

 I see your point.  It is not my intention to bring conflict even though
 that usually does result from any new teaching.  The #1 law of Church
 history is to damn the heretic and adopt the heresy.  Study the church
 councils that arranged and adopted the New Testament for an example of
 this law in action.

 When Jesus came it was controversial to say the least.  Note what he
 said:

 MAT 10:34   Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
             to send peace, but a sword.


 As for the hope of bringing sinners to Christ, something needs to be
 done.  If you haven't noticed, Christianity is in a crisis today.
 Young people are not finding the inspiration and vision to join or
 participate in religion.  It is good that you are thinking of this.

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Date       08-07-91 17:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Peter Perchansky
Subject    ADAM.1

 PP>      Do you have any sources to back up the information you are
 PP>      posting?

                               Fall of Man

      Based on the Book of Genesis in the Bible, Christians have
 traditionally held that somewhat vague belief that the Original Sin and
 root of sin and evil was the first human ancestors' eating a piece of
 fruit--the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (for
 brevity, often referred to hereafter as the fruit of good and evil).
 However, is the fruit of good and evil a literal fruit, or is it a
 symbol, as are many other terms in the Bible?
      How could a God of live, the parent of mankind, make such an
 attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his
 children and cause them to fall (Gen 3:6)?  Jesus said in Matthew 15:11,
 "'...not what goes into the mouth defiles a man....'"  How then could
 something edible cause man to fall?  It is also inconceivable that the
 God of love created the fruit of good and evil to test man--so
 mercilessly as to ultimately cause his death--merely to see whether or
 not man would obey His Word.  The fact that they ate the fruit, despite
 having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must
 represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it
 was even greater than their desire for life.
      Before we can determine what the fruit of good and evil symbolizes,
 we must know what the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was.  Yet
 the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is mentioned only a few times
 in the Bible.  So, in order to determine what the Tree of the Knowledge
 of Good and Evil symbolizes, we will first study the Tree of Life,
 which, according to the Bible, stood with the Tree of the Knowledge of
 Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:9, 2:17, 3:3) and is
 mentioned in numerous places throughout the Bible.
      Proverbs 13:12 says, "Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a
 desire fulfilled is a tree of life."  The Tree of Life is the most
 fundamental hope of man.  As Revelation 22:14 says, "Blessed are those
 who wash their robes [of sin and evil], that they may have the right to
 the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." These
 passages show that attaining the Tree of Life will lead to happiness for
 fallen man.  Then, what is this Tree of Life, such that it was the hope
 of the Israelites of the Old Testament Age and the hop of the Christians
 of the New Testament Age?
      If fallen people are asked what the essence of happiness and hope
 is, each person will give a different answer.  One person might answer
 that it is power, and another that it is wealth or knowledge.  Then what
 has been the common hop of people of faith throughout the history of
 mankind?  One thing is clear.  If the innermost hope of fallen man is
 the Tree of Life, then the hope of Adam before the Fall also must have
 been the Tree of Life.  The reason is that each person retains his
 original nature deep within himself, and thus longs for that which was
 originally desired before the Fall, but was lost.  Genesis 3:22-24 shows
 that Adam desired to reach the Tree of Life, but because of his sin was
 not allowed to.  Thus, the Tree of Life has remained an only a hope of
 fallen man.
      Then what was this Tree of Life, that hope of the growing, not-yet-
 perfected Adam?  Could material possessions have been the basic hope of
 Adam in the Garden of Eden, or power, or any external concerns? Since he
 was to be lord of the cosmos and to rule all things, there was no reason
 for Adam to hope for more material possessions or power. If Adam had any
 deep wish while he was still unperfected, it would only have been to
 achieve his own perfection.  In other words, his desire would have been
 to become a man of perfect character--one who has fulfilled the Ideal
 for the Creation.
      Therefore, the Tree of Life symbolizes the man who has fulfilled
 the Purpose of the Creation.  If Adam has not fallen and had attained
 the Ideal for the Creation, then he would have become the Tree of Life
 and he would have established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which is
 the garden of the Tree of Life.  However, Adam fell, and God blocked his
 way to the Tree of Life with a flaming sword (Gen 3:24).
      Since Adam abandoned the Purpose of the Creation, he became a false
 tree of life and bore descendants who were false trees of life, thus
 establishing a garden of false trees of life, rather than the garden of
 the trees of life.  Therefore, in order to establish the Kingdom of
 Heaven on earth, which is the garden of the trees of life, a true Tree
 of Life must appear in the fallen world and engraft all mankind to
 himself.  Knowing that the Tree of Life represents Adam, we can then
 understand that the Tree of Life in the Old Testament (Prov 13:12)
 represents Jesus (1 Cor 15:45), and the Tree of Life in the New
 Testament Book of Revelation (Rev 22:14) represents the returning
 Messiah.  Furthermore, we can understand why the purpose of the
 dispensation for salvation is to restore the Tree of Life that was lost
 in the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:9) in the Tree of Life that is mentioned in
 the Book of Revelation (Rev 22:14).
      In the Garden of Eden, God created Adam, and Eve to be his spouse.
 If in the midst of the garden there was a tree to symbolize the man,
 isn't it likely that there would also be a tree symbolizing the woman?
 Yes, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which stood with
 the Tree of Life (Gen 2:9, 2:17, 3:3), is this tree.
      In the Bible, Jesus is at times symbolically represented as a vine
 (Jn 15:5) or an olive tree (Rom 11:17).  In a similar fashion, Adam and
 Eve are represented by two trees, and through this a clue has been
 provided concerning the secret of man's Fall.  To assert that there was
 a Tree of Life and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the midst
 of the Garden of Eden does not mean that there were two literal trees in
 the geographical center of a literal garden, but rather means that the
 two people, Adam and Eve, re the center and nucleus of God's Ideal for
 the Creation.  God's entire Ideal for the Creation is to be fulfilled
 through man.  When we see things in these terms, we can see that the
 Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented the woman, Eve.  We

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Date       08-07-91 17:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Peter Perchansky
Subject    ADAM.1

 PP>Do you have any sources to back up the information you are posting?
      In Genesis 3 the Bible shows that it was a serpent that tempted Eve
 to sin.  However, the serpent referred to there cannot be a serpent in
 the literal sense--it must be a symbol.
      In Genesis 3 we also see that the "serpent" talked with the woman
 and that he understood that God had told Adam and Eve not to eat the
 Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  In order for the
 "serpent" to be able to speak to man and know what God had instructed,
 the "serpent" must have been a spirit being.  Revelation 12:9 says, "And
 that great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called
 the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down
 to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him," indicating that
 the "ancient serpent" is the Devil.  This "ancient serpent" is the very
 "serpent" which tempted Eve.  Since Revelation 12:9 says that the
 "serpent" was thrown down from heaven, we know that the "serpent" was in
 heaven prior to being thrown down, and therefore that he must have been
 a spiritual being.
      Since we know that the "serpent" is Satan (Rev 12:9), we can learn
 who the "serpent" was by discovering who Satan is.  In order to know who
 Satan is, we must discover the identity of the spirit being which was in
 heaven before it sinned.  It can be argued that since the "serpent" was
 originally in Eden before being thrown down from heaven, the "serpent"
 must originally have been a being that God created with the nature of
 goodness and a being that was not yet perfect, because (1) there was no
 being in Eden which was not created by God; (2) God creates only good;
 and (3) no good being could commit a sin after becoming perfect.
      Some imagine that this spirit being which is symbolized ass a
 serpent was a being which existed even before the Creation existed and
 was a being whose intent was evil, contrary to that of God.  However,
 with the exception of fallen man, everything in the cosmos exists
 according to one perfect order; so it is not possible that there could
 have been from the beginning a source of evil which was contrary to God.
 If there had originally been two opposing forces in the universe, their
 contradictory purposes would have caused the universe to be destroyed.
 It can only be concluded that this spirit being was originally created
 for the purpose of goodness, but later, while in the process of growing,
 fell and became Satan.  This being was able to converse with man; it
 knew God's Will; it originally lived in heaven; it had the ability to
 tempt man; and this being, after falling and becoming Satan, was still
 able, transcendent of time and space, to influence man's mind and
 spirit, causing man to lead a life of evil.  What being is endowed with
 such abilities?  No being other than the angel is endowed with such
 abilities.  One might ask whether angels can commit sins, but biblical
 evidence for this is clear. In fact, when we read 2 Peter 2:4, which
 says "...God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them
 into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom...," we can clearly
 see that angels can and do sin. Taking due note that Revelation 12:7-9,
 in saying "his angels," indicates that the "serpent" was in fact a
 leader of angels, we can understand that the "serpent" was an angel.
      Then what was the sin of this angel?  Jude 6-7 says, "And the
 angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper
 dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom
 until the judgment of the great day; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the
 surrounding cities, which likewise [like the angels] acted immorally and
 indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a
 punishment of eternal fire."  The sin of the angel (in the Garden) was
 the sin of fornication.  Since fornication cannot be committed alone,
 there must have been a partner.  But who could it have been?  The Bible
 tells us of only three beings that sinned in the Garden of Eden; the
 serpent and Adam and Eve.  Let us consider what the sin of the first man
 and woman could have been.
      In Genesis 3:7 we read that after being tempted by the serpent and
 committing sin, the first ancestors became ashamed of their nakedness
 and covered the lower parts of their bodies.  However, before their fall
 Adam and Eve were naked but unashamed (Gen 2:25).  Then when we read
 that they covered the lower, or sexual, parts of their bodies with fig
 leaves after they sinned, we must ask ourselves whether man also
 committed the sin of fornication.
      It is in fallen man's nature to try to conceal his faults and
 wrongs; so if the fruit of good and evil were a fruit in the literal
 sense, Adam and Eve should have covered their hands or mouths if they
 had taken the fruit with their hands or had eaten it with their mouths.
 Yet we find that they covered their sexual parts, not their hands and
 mouths.  This is an indication that Adam and Eve's transgression
 involved their sexual parts.  Job 31:33 says, "...I have concealed my
 transgression...like Adam by hiding my iniquity in my bosom" (emphasis
 added).  Job's words indicate that Adam concealed his transgression, and
 since we know that Adam and Eve concealed their sexual parts, we can
 conclude that their sin involved their sexual parts.
      In the Garden of Eden, the only sin that man would possible commit
 at the risk of his life was a sin involving love.  Adam and Eve were to
 grow as brother and sister, and, after perfecting themselves, were to
 establish the Kingdom of Heaven by becoming the first husband and wife
 and creating God's family, fulfilling the Purpose of the Creation.
 However, when Jesus says in John 8:44, "'You are of your father the
 devil...,'" he clearly shows that fallen people are descendants of the
 Devil.  Adam and Eve forsook God, their true father, and became one with
 a false father, Satan, which is the reason that Romans 8:23 says, "...we
 ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we
 wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (emphasis
 added).  The fact that we are waiting for adoption into God's lineage
 tells us that we are not of God's lineage.  In Matthew 3:7 and Matthew
 23:33, respectively, John the Baptist and Jesus called the people a
 "brood of vipers"--in other words, the offspring of serpents-clearly
 indicating that fallen man is the offspring of Satan.  Thus we can
 clearly understand that fallen man belongs to Satan's lineage, not
 God's.  This is the result of Eve's committing the sin of fornication

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Date       08-07-91 17:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Peter Perchansky
Subject    RESTORE.5

 PP>      God never changes, Terry.
 PP>
 PP>      If God tells us A is true, then A is always true.
 PP>
 PP>      Do you believe this to be true?

 JOH 16:12   I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear
             them now.

 JOH 16:25   These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the
             time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in
             proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

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Date       08-07-91 17:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Larry Sites
Subject    RESTORE.5

 LS> I see. I must say, that for the most part your messages agree
 LS> with my understanding of the bible. There is a guideline in
 LS> science that the most straight forward explaination of something
 LS> is to be preferred. What is the benefit of adding the complexity
 LS> of your approach to mans relationship with God?

 In order to restore something that is broken ( fallen ) it is necessary
 to thoroughly understand the problem before a valid solution will be
 realized.    The Divine Principle is not that complex.  Once you can
 understand and accept the possibility that God wants Grand Children the
 rest fits into place.

 Adam and Eve did not have sinless children.  Jesus did not become a
 father.  The messiah must come again and the marriage supper of the lamb
 must take place.  You can figure out what the messiah and his bride will
 do after they are married.    Yes, raise sinless child.  Who do you
 think will oppose the birth of sinless children... Yes, Satan.   That is
 why he entered into Judas to participate in the murder of Jesus. You
 know what sinless children grow to become ? Yes,  Messiah's.  The last
 thing on Satan's wish list is multitudes of sinless children.

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Date       08-07-91 17:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Peter Perchansky
Subject    RESTORE.7

 PP>      According to the Infallable Word of God, Mary was a virgin
 PP>      before the birth of Jesus.
 PP>
 PP>      May I ask you, Terry, what denomination you are from?

 Unification Church.  Founded by Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

 And check out the word virgin... it means 'young woman' when correctly
 translated.   So yes Mary was a virgin.   In the Hebrew context, a woman
 is virgin until her first child is born.

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Date       08-07-91 17:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rafae'l Nathan
Subject    RESTORE.7

 RN>   Not at all, check out the birth of Isaac.

 Sorry I can find no connection between Isaac and the concept of a virgin
 birth ?   Can you give me another clue about what you mean ?


 RN>   >That God set up the murder of his son ?
 RN>
 RN>   Yes and No.  G-d has His first born son who is suffering for
 RN> the sins of the world.

 Still not clear here either.  Did God originally send Jesus to be
 murdered or was this the course that evolved when he could not find
 faith and acceptance ?

 RN>   >That you are soon going to float away into the stratosphere ?
 RN>
 RN>   No, when i die i will be buried in the ground so as to return
 RN> to the   dust from which i came.

 Humm,  Definitely not a fundamentalist if you aren't looking forward to
 the levitation experience.

 RN> BS"D    Shalom 'alechim,        Rafae'l


 How does you theology fit into the Christian scheme of things ?

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Date       08-07-91 17:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rafae'l Nathan
Subject    RESTORE.8

 RN>   This is not true of Judaism, it is returning to G-d by leaps
 RN> and   bounds.

 OK,  you have to excuse me for not taking the time and effort to find
 out where you were coming from.  I'll try to write my messages to you in
 a manner that will be easier for your to relate to since you aren't
 coming from the Christian angle.

Date       08-11-91 07:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dan Singleton
Subject    MOON = SON? (HA!)

 DS> I must have been out of town when Rev. Moon came "on the clouds
 DS> of the sky with power and great glory." (Matt 24:31)  And the
 DS> funny thing is I don't remember seeing it on the news either.


 LUK 17:20    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom
              of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom
              of God cometh not with observation:
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 REV 12:5    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all
             nations with a rod of iron

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Date       08-11-91 10:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Brothers and Children, no

 MS> BTW, my Heavenly Father is the Author of Perfection.  I don't
 MS> need an earthly imperfect faulty copy.

 I'm not so quick to throw out Jesus' directions :

 MAT 5:48    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in
             heaven is perfect.

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Date       08-11-91 10:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bethels Hope @ 960/1
Subject    Jahovah's Witnesses Msg #

 BH> had heard it all.  During the study they planted the thought
 BH> that he was not serving God in the right way.  They bombarded
 BH> him with material that brought into question areas of belief he
 BH> had never really thought about before. Confusion mounted and
 BH> soon the leaders were supplying answers.  Of course these
 BH> answers assumed acceptance of all previous teachings.  They set
 BH> a schedule of study that left little time for anything else.  Of
 BH> course, the leaders endorsed this by pointing out that there was
 BH> really nothing in life more important than this.


 Sounds just like any other church camp meeting/revival when people are
 seeking to save the lost.  Sounds like you never went to vacation Bible
 school ?

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Date       08-11-91 10:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bethels Hope @ 960/1
Subject    Jahovah's Witnesses Msg #

 BH> idea that God had seen fit to bring Steve into this truth and
 BH> the worst thing Steve could ever do was to abandon what God had
 BH> so generously provided.

 So is your faith one that should be abandoned ?   I don't think mine is
 either.   Scripture is full of advice about backsliding :

 LUK 9:62    And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the
 plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

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Date       08-11-91 10:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rafae'l Nathan
Subject    Spirits of the dead

 RN>  This was suppose to be the resurrection of the dead.  This is
 RN>  something added in because they knew that the dead are suppose
 RN> to  rise after the comming of the messiah.  It is obisiouly
 RN> faked since  if this had of happened then there would have been
 RN> 1000 years of  peace.

 Not only that, but if these people were really physically resurrected
 and resurrection means to come into eternal life, shouldn't these
 old people be walking around somewhere today ?

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Date       08-16-91 21:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    -

 EM> So you believe these are the end times.  Well, they may very
 EM> well be, lots of people (whether they listen to Rev. Moon or
 EM> not) think they are or may be.  Why does Rev. Moon say they are?

 I think he read the watchtower when he was a young man < grin >.

 Serriously,  there will be about 4 or 5 messages posted in about a week
 or two on the last days... keep watching !


 EM> Do you think Moon is God?  Why or why not?  I believe he's
 EM> claimed that he is.

 I don't think Rev Moon is God.   Because:

 God is bigger than a man :   Gen 1:27

 Rev Moon did not create the universe:  No Scripture necessary <grin>

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Date       08-16-91 21:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject    BETTER LATE THAN NEVER

 >Once again, I am taken by both the internal consistency and the dynamic
 force >of your theology.  It seems to me that its only weakness shows up
 when it >attempts to address traditional (Apostolic) Christian theology
 and christology.

 Thanks.  You are correct in your observation that there is a difference.

 >Much of what you say on this subject tends to "miss the mark" by a
 small >margin, at least with regard to those understandings which would
 be held >in common among Anglicans, Roman Catholics, and Eastern
 Orthodox Christians >concerning the nature of Christ.

 This difference that you observe may not be quite as far off mark as it
 actually is.  When you try to pull someone in a different direction that
 you believe to be on the correct course, you usually have to lean across
 the line.. you know like straightening out a hack saw blade and bending
 it past the point you want it to go to when you release it. The problem
 with the Jesus is God belief is that it tends to bottle God up in a way
 that limits God to sorta following Jesus around. Since Genesis indicates
 that God's image is both male and female, the fullest manifestation of
 God on earth can only be represented in a marriage. Once I can expand
 someone's thinking to agree that Jesus ( being a man ) at most could be
 only half God, I can then accept that God can be fully manifested in a
 marriage between Christ and a physical Bride.

 >Christologically, the same principle applies.  Jesus Christ possesses,
 within >Himself, the full manifestation of the Divine nature and,

 This is where we differ.  I think that it is possible that God could
 have more love, more wisdom, more power... etc than Jesus. Take the
 scripture where Jesus says: "The Father is Greater that I" for example.
 I also think God has a feminine ( mother ) nature that Jesus could not
 embody.  This had lead to ( what 'outsiders' call ) the Mariology
 doctrine.  I see this as evidence that the absence of a wife for Christ
 was supplemented in orthodox theology by Mother Mary.

 >The question remains, did Jesus Christ find Himself forced into this
 >position?

 Since I view the mission of Christ as a mission to restore Adam's
 failure, I cannot understand how Christ's mission could exclude marrying
 and having a family.  How could Christ come and fulfill his mission
 without multiplying sinless children ? Adam was told to multiply and I
 am sure God didn't mean for him to have children with sin in them.

 > Or was it His intention from the beginning?  We see, in the Gospels,
 that >Jesus several times predicted, before witnesses, that He was going
 to die >by crucifixion in Jerusalem.

 I agree totally that the prophecy was always there that Jesus could be
 rejected and forced to go the way of the cross.  But I can't understand
 why God would work through 2,000 years of Jewish history to prepare
 people that were destined to murder His son.  Wasn't God taking a chance
 that with all this preparation they may believe in Jesus ?  Every time
 the prophecies of Jesus crucifixion are brought up, I remember the
 prophecies in Isaiah 9:6 and 7.

 >If His plan were for Him to avoid that death and continue to live,

 My #1 problem with the idea that God sent Jesus to die is the fact that
 it makes God dependent on Satan to support this plan and enter Judas and
 fulfill the mission of betraying Christ. If I correctly understand the
 relationship between God and Satan, I can't believe that God would put
 Himself in a position to rely on Satan.  Do you see why I am confused ?

 >***** MESSAGE TRUNCATED BY DOGFIGHT *****

 I found this message by accident.  A portion of it was saved to a
 notknown.msg file.   I wrote a program to chop up messages, so they
 would not be lost, but it cannot correctly count lines for every format
 that is used on fidonet.   I don't know what kind of text editor you are
 using, but it is saving your message in one of the formats I haven't
 learned to deal with.   Out of a possible 1,000 to 1,500 messages I
 imported during the last couple of weeks, this one was one of the only
 TWO that my program did not work on.  If you can limit your message
 length to about 90 lines it will insure they don't get lost if they are
 posted on a Spitfire BBS, or any other BBS that has a 99 line limit on
 messages.

 Maybe I'll figure out how to chop messages entered with the kind of
 reader you are using.

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Date       08-16-91 21:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject     Brothers and Childredren

 MS> MS> BTW, my Heavenly Father is the Author of Perfection.  I
 MS> don't MS> need an earthly imperfect faulty copy.
 MS>
 MS> TB>  I'm not so quick to throw out Jesus' directions :
 MS> TB>
 MS> TB>  MAT 5:48    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
 MS> which is in TB>              heaven is perfect.
 MS> Neither am I, but I'm not the one claiming that Moon is
 MS> perfect....  If he were to preach the Bible, I could claim him
 MS> as a brother.  But because of his hereaies, he is nothing but a
 MS> false prophet and antiChrist.

 Where did I write that Rev Moon was perfect ?   You keep writing all
 kinds of erroneous messages...  you told someone I said that Jesus
 failed... even after I posted a message explaining to you that the
 PEOPLE failed to understand and support Jesus so he could not get
 married under those circumstances...   Now you try to imply that I have
 claimed that Rev Moon is perfect.   I never said this.

 Why are you so worked up about Rev Moon anyway ?    If I want to make
 him MY messiah that shouldn't bother you.  You aren't too bothered by
 people who have made drugs and crime their messiah !

 You are simply ignorant of what Rev Moon is trying to do, and who he is.
 Ignorance is curable.

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Date       08-16-91 21:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Johnson
Subject     JAHOVAH'S WITNESSES ES M

 GJ> They rely on people's **OWN** thought processes to get them to
 GJ> believe in Christ, not in a bunch of "programming" and
 GJ> hogwash...

 So I'm brain washed ?   Must make you feel mighty superior ?

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Date       08-16-91 21:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bethels Hope @ 960/1
Subject    Jehovah's Witnesses Msg #

 BH> I would like to summarize the messags of the last several weeks
 BH> to take a practical look at the workings of those groups that
 BH> use mind control to prey upon the unsuspecting.  Groups like

 Why don't you stop trying to control my mind.   This conference is for
 discussion of biblical subjects.  Have you read the Bible ?  Why don't
 you post your silly intrepretations and let me have a crack at them ?

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Date       08-16-91 21:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Boerma
Subject         Messiah

 CB>     Art has a use to the Artist. Its a way in which he can
 CB> express himself. I don't think art is nesassary in our world. It
 CB> helps to make it interessting,
 CB> but isn't needed.

 Did you ever stop to think that man has two natures ?  One side that
 seeks to be satisfied throught the physical senses... the material
 world.     The othe side seeks truth, beauty, love etc through the
 spiritual senses ?  After you get a full belly and sit by the warm fire,
 you are ready to pull up your keyboard and philosophise with someone
 that can stimulate your artistic, creative nature....

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Date       08-16-91 21:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Boerma
Subject         Messiah

 CB>   Yes it would be anguish for a person to have to live alone,
 CB> but not impossibl(Hermits?). God though, even be himself is not
 CB> alone. He is THREE persons together!

 Well apparently three persons weren't enough to satisfy God :

 Gen 1:28  ....and MULTIPLY  !

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Date       08-16-91 21:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject        RESTORE.3

 WC> TB>MAR 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when
 WC> the TB>time is.
 WC>
 WC>     See I Thessalonians 4:13-18. When He comes for His church it
 WC> will be as a thief in the night. He will not set foot on the
 WC> earth but just call out His own. At the end of the 7 years of
 WC> tribulation He will return in power and glory. It will be
 WC> similar to the way He ascended.

 Can you see that there could be just a little bit of a chance you are
 making the same mistake the Jews made when they read Danile 7:13 and
 expected Jesus in the clouds ?   You are doing the same thing that they
 did but you are using Thessalonians...    Don't take a chance on being
 fooled twice !   If you don't eliminate the possibility that Christ may
 come born of woman, then if  you are checking both places you have a
 much better chance of finding the messiah than if you look up all the
 time.

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Date       08-16-91 21:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject        RESTORE.3

 WC> TB>Why do you want to paint a picture that makes God responsible
 WC> for TB>Jesus death?
 WC>
 WC>     Since Jesus is Jehovah God then God determined the fate of
 WC> Jesus.

 So your doctrine concludes that Judas is a hero for fulfilling God's
 will in desposing of Jesus ?  This would also make Satan a good guy for
 supporting Judas ?   I don't think it has occurred to you that God
 wanted Grand Children not a crucifixion.  Why didn't God just send Jesus
 to Adams' family and then Cain could have killed Jesus and Abel ?  That
 would have saved thousands of years of humans coming and going without
 the option for salvation.    Sorry I drifted off to rational reasoning.

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Date       08-16-91 21:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject        RESTORE.3

 WC>     The Holy Spirit was not given until the Day of Pentecost in
 WC> Acts

 Humm,  looks like you are way off on this one.  This event took place
 long before Pentecost:

 LUK 4:1     And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan,
             and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

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Date       08-16-91 21:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject        RESTORE.3

 WC> John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
 WC> and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have,
 WC> which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they
 WC> shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one
 WC> shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay
 WC> down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it
 WC> from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it
 WC> down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
 WC> received of my Father.
 WC>     The Bible says that Jesus lay down his life for His sheep
 WC> (be- lievers). What do you say? Did Jesus die for us? How do you
 WC> reconcile verse 18 with your statement about murder?

 This is a good question.  It's been over a year now an you have not
 understood me yet.  Originally God planned on Jesus being accepted and
 then he would have been able to marry and raise sinless children... this
 was the favorable option #1.

 However there was the 2nd option that was a possibility:  the people
 would not have faith, they would reject Jesus... who was in the Abel
 position and they would too would have to deal with sin and overcome
 it..    and if they failed, the Cain - Abel story would repeat itself,
 rather than the successful Jacob - Essau version that was such a victory
 for God.   Since the Cain - Abel unity between Jesus and John the
 Baptist was not established, the secondary course was all that was left
 for Jesus to follow.   In order for a condition to be made so that the
 messiah could return, Jesus had to give his life.  The situation should
 never have come to this point but since it did, Satan was in a position
 to claim mankind forever BUT Jesus went the way of sacrifice and gave
 his on life so fallen man could still have a chance for salvation.

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Date       08-16-91 22:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dan Singleton
Subject    SECOND COMING

 DS> You have falsely equated this with the Second Coming which
 DS> (according to Matthew 24) is loaded with signs to be observed.
 So why pray and stay awake for such an event that will obvioulsy be
 reported on the 6:00 news ?   You don't know the Biblical meaning of
 'clouds'  let me help you.
 Jesus said, "'No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from
 heaven, the Son of man'" (Jn 3:13), indicating that he came from heaven.
 Yet, as we well know, Jesus was born on earth from his mother, Mary.
 Why then did he say he came from heaven?

      The word 'heaven' is frequently used in the Bible.  It is
 repeatedly used as a metaphor to connote great value, sacredness, or
 goodness. Thus, we can interpret what Jesus said to mean 'I was born
 like all of you, but I am very different in the motive and origin of my
 birth; I am born of God'.  With this understanding of the word 'heaven',
 the prophecy that Jesus is coming on the clouds is not incorrect.
 However, it is a mistake to interpret it literally.
      In a similar way, John the Baptist, who was born in the family of
 Zachariah according to God's special dispensation, was not merely born
 of this earth, but had a great mission (Lk 1:15-17, 76).  Regardless of
 the form of his birth, God was the direct cause, and thus John had "come
 down from heaven" representing Elijah, and had the same mission of
 Elijah.

    The Second Coming of Christ Takes Place through his Birth on Earth

      From what is shown in the examples of Elijah's second coming and
 Jesus' coming, both of which were the direct work of God, one cannot
 help but give serious thought to the prophecies for the Second Coming.
      In summary, the New Testament not only contains prophecies that say
 Christ will come as a judge amidst glory on a cloud from heaven, but
 also some that say he will come again just as he did the first time,
 quite contrary to the other type of prophecy of his coming on the
 clouds.
      We read in Luke 17:24,25 that Jesus, anticipating what was going to
 happen at the Second Coming, said," '...so will the Son of man be in his
 day.  But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this
 generation.'"  If the Lord should come again amidst power and glory,
 with the trumpet call of the archangel, who would dare deny and
 persecute him?  Would you persecute him?
      Today, many faithful Christians and churches are looking up to the
 sky, waiting for the Lord to come on the clouds.  If he were to come on
 the clouds, there would be no reason for him to be persecuted. However,
 if he does not come on a literal cloud, and instead comes in the flesh,
 as at the First Coming, then it becomes apparent why Jesus said he would
 first suffer before finally being recognized (Lk 17:24,25).
      Revelation 12:5 says," ...she brought forth a male child, one who
 is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught
 up to God and to his throne."  The man who will rule the world with a
 rod of iron is the coming Lord.  In this verse, it says that he will be
 born of a woman.  When the Pharisees wanted to know the time of the
 Second Coming, they asked Jesus when the Kingdom of God was coming, and
 he answered,"...'The Kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be
 observed...'" (Lk 17:20).  Everyone can gaze up at heaven, but Jesus
 said that the coming of God's Kingdom, in other words, the Second Coming
 will not be visible.  Why is that so?  It is because the Messiah does
 not come on a literal cloud.  In Luke 18:8, Jesus said, " 'I tell you,
 he will vindicate them speedily.  Nevertheless, when the Son of man
 comes, will he find faith on earth?' "Jesus was prophesying that he
 would not find faith on earth at his second coming.  This means that
 when he comes, there will be almost no one who will be saved by their
 complete faith.  Why is this so?
      Of course, not all believers on earth have perfect faith, but there
 are people all over the world who are going the way of true faith. Then
 why did Jesus imply that he would not find faith?  Furthermore, who
 would fail to recognize the Lord coming on a literal cloud? Certainly
 even non-believers would recognize him and have faith in him.  Will
 people lack faith because someone will prevent them from having it?
 Certainly not.  Difficulties do not necessarily weaken a person's faith.
 We interpret Jesus' saying that he would not find faith on earth to mean
 that he is going to come in the same manner as at the first coming.
      When Jesus came two thousand years ago, there was great faith - of
 a sort - among the people.  Some prayed day and night in the temple, and
 they memorized the commandments.  They tried hard to keep all of the
 commandments and laws that God had ordered them to keep.  They
 faithfully offered their tithes, and they fasted.  In this sense, they
 had great faith in God, yet there was no true faith.  Why didn't they
 have a faith that would allow them to believe in Jesus as the Messiah
 sent by God?
      From this viewpoint, Jesus could not find any faith on earth!
 Similarly, today there are millions of good Christians waiting for the
 Lord to appear - on the clouds; but if he comes in the same way as he
 did before, will he find the faith that will enable Christians to
 recognize him?
      To emphasize once again, based on the Bible passages quoted above
 and on the lessons learned from God's work in history, the Second Coming
 will occur as the first coming did, with the Messiah's being born in the
 flesh on earth.  Indeed, he comes as the Son of man.

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Date       08-16-91 22:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Johnson
Subject     SPIRITS OF THE DEAD

 GJ> Thanks for sending the quote, at least I have a better idea of
 GJ> where you are coming from, though I still don't see any
 GJ> indication of sexual relatiojns at ALL.

 Check out "naked and unashamed"  before the fall and the "ashamed of
 their nakedness" after the fall.   Also think about what kind of fruit
 is really more desirable than life ?   Could it be a real fruit ?

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Date       08-16-91 22:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject      Spirits of the Dead

 CR> But this is what the Bible tells us. Are you saying that you
 CR> refuse to believe the Bible?

 NO way I would ever refuse to believe the Bible... but I frequently do
 disagree with some peoples intrepretation of the Bible.  This happens
 to be one of them.  I can't even find the word 'materialized' ?

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Date       08-16-91 22:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject      Spirits of the Dead

 CR> >  The truth is:   Humans have both physical and spiritual
 CR> > bodies. When  they die only the spiritual body remains.
 CR> > Spirits do not have physical  bodies, and they cannot and
 CR> > have never materialized into physical  bodies.
 CR>
 CR> What about the two angels that visited Lot? They spent the
 CR> evening at his home and they ATE with him. They HAD materialized
 CR> into human bodies.

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Date       08-16-91 22:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bethels Hope @ 960/1
Subject    Jehovah's Witnesses Msg #

 BH> Message (6)

 First there is no need to make innocent Terry Blounts pay for posting your
 messages in triplicate.  You are clearly a selfish individual that is
 taking advantage of the generosity of others.

 Second you are hereby insulated from this bbs for failing to use your
 real name.

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Date       08-16-91 22:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     NOAH.2 part 1/2

 WC>     Obviously Jesus is not married because He has not returned
 WC> to the earth as you have suggested. When He returns we shall all
 WC> know about it. Since only a select few seem aware of this
 WC> supposed marriage a few years ago it is in direct violation of
 WC> Scripture which says that everyone will know about it.

 Everyone will know in time.   Wouldn't you rather be among the first to
 know ?

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Date       08-17-91 10:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject      Everlasting Lifef

 TB> TB>> Then how do you understand Psalms 37:29 "The righteous
 TB> TB>> themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside
 TB> forever TB>> upon it."
 TB> TB>  Just like I would if it said the Koreans would inherit the
 TB> TB>  earth and possess it themselves and reside forever upon it.
 TB>
 TB> Then you are saying that it is a figure of speech.  And it is
 TB> not literal.  And you believe that they will not reside forever
 TB> on the earth. Or that they well not inherit the earth?  Can you
 TB> elaborate Terry?

 Yes, the righteous shall possess the earth and reside forever upon it.
 But the righteous are a GROUP or Clasification of people.  It does not
 mean one particular person.  I may say that the Bentley's shall live
 forever, but that would mean that you would always heave descendants,
 not that you personally would live forever.

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Date       08-17-91 10:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Joel Comm
Subject    The Jehovah's Witnesses A

 JC> Right in believing that the Bible is the Word of God
 JC> Wrong in thinking that the Bible cannot be understood apart from
 JC> the literature published by the Watchtower Society

 Are you telling us that your faith has no doctrine of faith ?  No other
 material you use to teach from at Sunday School ?    I don't believe you
 are without extra-biblical publications.   What faith are propounding.

 JC> RIGHT in believing in creation rather than evolution
 JC> WRONG in believing that Jesus Christ is a created being

 Jesus did not create the world.  He wasn't even born till about 2,000
 years ago.

 JC> RIGHT in teaching the ressurection of Christ
 JC> WRONG in teaching that he was raised as a spirit person

 They are right here again and you are wrong.   Jesus was not easily
 recognized after the resurrection.  He walked through walls and
 levitated against the power of gravity...  just to mention a couple
 things that physical bodies don't do.   If Jesus had the same body
 before the ressurection and after, there is no way the nails could have
 held him on the cross.

 JC> RIGHT in believing that Jehovah is the true and living God
 JC> WRONG in rejecting the doctrine of the trinity

 The trinity doctrine is a polytheistic belief that strives to find a way
 allow people to believe in more than one God.   How many gods are their?

 JC> RIGHT in believing that Jesus is the son of God
 JC> WRONG in not believing that He is GOd the Son

 You must not read your Bible:

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;

 JC> RIGHT in believing in the corruption of Christendom
 JC> WRONG in thinking that all Christians who are not WTS fail to
 JC> worship and serve the true God

 Well, this is a mistake that everyone makes.  Who believes that they are
 in the wrong religion ? If you believed your religion was not the right
 one then you would change.

 JC> RIGHT in believing in unity
 JC> WRONG in thinking that the WTS is the one true religion

 What religion is the one true religion ?

 JC> RIGHT in recognizing the importance of Good Works
 JC> WRONG in believing that works are a condition of salvation

 MAT 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
           exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye
           shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
                 ^^^^^^^^^^
 Looks like the Jw's are reading the scripture a whole lot more than you.

 JC> RIGHT in teaching the second coming of Christ
 JC> WRONG in believing that Christ returned in 1914

 Well finally we agree...  the date was actually  1920 !

 JC> RIGHT in believing in the kingdom of God
 JC> WRONG in believing that it is being established through the WTS

 Yes, we agree here too...  The Kingdom of God will be established by
 TRUE PARENTS, and the ideal families that will emerge from the fallen
 society after the Marriage supper of the Lamb.

 JC> RIGHT in believing that the Jewish Law taought against drinking
 JC> blood WRONG in their teachings against blood transfusions

 Yes, they made a mistake about transfusions... but they made the same
 mistake about organ transplants and later corrected it... give them some
 time and they will most likely fix this mistake too.

 JC> RIGHT in translating the Word of God
 JC> WRONG in perverting the New World Translation to suit their own
 JC> doctrines Jeus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth
 JC> will set you free."

 I would like to see ANY doctrine, faith, or belief that does not
 interpret the scripture to suit their own ideas.  There in none !

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Date       08-17-91 14:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     ABRAHAM.3

 WC> MJ>Excuse me??? but, do normal people hear voices??? I don't
 WC> think MJ>so. Maybe schizophrenics and neurotics but not
 WC> ordinary, normal, MJ>mentally-stable persons.
 WC>
 WC>     You are an expert on how God speaks to people? What do you
 WC> know about the methods that God uses to communicate with people?
 WC> There are a number of us on the echo that have been present when
 WC> God spoke and a number of others have has God speak to them. Why
 WC> must it always be in an audible voice. That sounds like a
 WC> preconceived idea on your part.

 Very good Walter.    You may want to point out that normal people may
 not hear voices from God because once God speaks to someone, what is
 normal for the rest of the world often becomes abnormal for the person
 who has communicated with God.

 I would think that the view of the messiah being some kind of abnormal
 super human is not accurate.  Actually the messiah is probably just a
 normal man  but everyone around him is abnormal thus he appears to be a
 very strange individual.   Maybe someday everyone can become just as
 strange and abnormal as the messiah ?

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Date       08-17-91 14:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.5 part 1/2

 WC> TB>Jacob brought about Esau's voluntary submission
 WC>
 WC>     No, this is not biblical. Esau never voluntarily submitted
 WC> to Jacob at any time.

 GEN 33:3    And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the
             ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.
 GEN 33:4    And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his
             neck, and kissed him: and they wept.


 In the course of restoration there comes a time when you must understand
 the voluntary submission of the person in Cain's position to the person
 in Abel's position.  The episode of Jacob and Esau is the only victory
 of this sort you will find in the entire Bible.  Since John the Baptist
 could not/did not unite in this fashion with Jesus, the results for
 Jesus was the crucifixion...  much like the same results for Abel.

 Just remember that Satan hates humility and he cannot humble himself. If
 you want to go to God you first must make a condition to separate from
 Satan and this can be done by doing what Satan can't do.... sacrifice
 for others.  If you read Gen 32, you will find that in order to gain the
 voluntary submission of Esau, Jacob gave everything he had, his entire
 fortune to Esau, and then bowed down to him.

 Since Adam and Eve fell at the cost of their own life, Jacob had to love
 Esau more than he did his own life and Esau had to overcome the same
 feelings and situation that Cain had to deal with when God told him that
 sin was crouching at his door.

 When I pointed out that Jesus taught of the two conditions/commandments
 that must met, you did not understand.  Jesus said Love God with all
 your heart.  This makes the vertical condition.  Then love your neighbor
 as yourself.  This makes the horizontal condition.   In our terminology
 it is called the foundation of faith ( vertical relationship with God )
 and the foundation of substance ( horizontal relationship with a person
 in the Abel position ).   Unless these two conditions are met, the
 commandments Jesus taught are not fulfilled and Satan still has control
 over fallen man.

 I have to say that even though you have disagreed with nearly everything
 I have posted, it does make me happy that at least one person in this
 conference can understand these ideas enough to allow me to start to go
 into some detail.  Thanks for reading and replying to my post.

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Date       08-17-91 15:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.5 part 1/2

 WC>     This is extra-biblical. Esau never submitted to Jacob.

 GEN 33:3    And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the
             ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.
 GEN 33:4    And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his
             neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

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Date       08-17-91 15:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.5 part 1/2

 WC> TB>Then, from this starting point, God raised and developed a
 WC> chosen TB>people.
 WC>
 WC>     No, Jacob is not the starting point. The starting point for
 WC> the Hebrews is Abraham. Isaac and Jacob received their position
 WC> as a result of the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham.

 Who was given the name 'Israel' ?

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Date       08-17-91 15:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.5 part 2/2

 WC> TB>Now, let us examine the meaning oh the verse in Romans 9:13,
 WC> where TB>we read that God "hated" Esau even while he was in the
 WC> womb. This TB>verse simply means that God was working to fulfill
 WC> his Dispensa- TB>tion for Restoration through indemnity
 WC> according to the principles TB>of the Dispensation for
 WC> Restoration by placing Esau in the posi- TB>tion of Cain.

 WC>     No, it simply means that Esau had a bad attitude. He did not
 WC> esteme the things of God. God is omniscient. He knew Esau's
 WC> personali- ty before he was born. Esau was never placed in the
 WC> position of Cain.

 You sure have a deep theology.  You read all about Jacob and Esau and
 then conclude the only meaning is that Esau had a bad attitude.  I am
 sure a lot of information and insight slipped by you.  Better read it
 again.

 WC> TB>he would have been in the position of restored Cain and would
 WC> TB>eventually have received the love and blessings of God (Gen
 WC> 36:7).
 WC>     Esau never was in the postion to restore anything. God's
 WC> promise did not pass through Esau. Therefore, it was not
 WC> possible for Esau to restore.

 The Bible is a record of God's attempt to restore man.  Everyone
 mentioned has a part in this historical effort to restore man from the
 fallen state of sin.

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Date       08-17-91 15:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.5 part 2/2

 WC> TB>So, though Isaac's descendants had established the Foundation
 WC> for TB>the Messiah,
 WC>
 WC>     I thought you said that Jacob did all this.

 Jacob is Isaac's son ( descendant ).

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Date       08-17-91 15:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.5 part 2/2

 WC> TB>Externally, however, Isaac's descendants still had to undergo
 WC> four TB>hundred years of oppression as indemnity for Abraham's
 WC> failure.
 WC>     Not really, they forgot God. God did not deliever them until
 WC> they began to cry out to Him.

 GEN 15:13   And he said unto Abraham, Know of a surety that thy seed
             shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and
             shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred
             years;

 Don't you find it strange that they cried out and Moses lead them from
 slavery in Egypt 409 years after God pronounced this judgment to
 Abraham?

 By the way the exact same thing happened to christianity after the
 MURDERED of Christ.  Christianity suffered 400 years of persecution till
 392 A.D. when Emperor Theodosius II ended it.

 When people fail, INDEMNITY conditions HAVE to be met !

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Date       08-17-91 15:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.2

 WC> TB>Because of the Fall, even man's dead body belongs to Satan.
 WC>
 WC>     Can you give us scriptural reference for this statement? The
 WC> physical body is dead. There is no life in it. It returns to
 WC> dust or ashes if cremated. Satan has not use for a dead body. He
 WC> cannot use it.

 ROM 7:23    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
             of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
             which is in my members.

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Date       08-17-91 16:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.2

 WC>     What must I do to be saved? All this stuff is of no value if
 WC> I die lost. After salvation then all the other stuff can be
 WC> added.

 1. find the messiah

 2. follow the messiah


 This stuff is very important.  Sorry you are having such a difficult
 time understanding it.  More prayer Walter.

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Date       08-17-91 16:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.3

 WC>     What must I do to be saved? There may not be time for all
 WC> this. Salvation first then theory and theology.

 There is plenty time.  If you are living at the time of the messiah and
 do not find him don't count on going to sleep as the Jw's have tried get
 us to believe... there is nothing more important to you than
 understanding the course of restoration.  If you don't know the way to
 church you will never get there either.  You must first FIND THE
 MESSIAH,  then  follow the messiah.  Pray Walter.  Find the truth.

 You and I are living in the greatest of times.  The messiah may actually
 be walking the earth.  Seriously ask God to show you what He has shown me.
Date       08-18-91 12:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC> supposed to restore "the Foundation of Substance." In fact this
 WC> term is not found anywhere in Scripture. The teaching is
 WC> extra-biblical.

 The term 'extra-biblical' is not to be found anywhere in Scripture but
 you love to ues it when you don't understand something.

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Date       08-18-91 12:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC> TB>Through his forty years in the palace, Moses fulfilled the
 WC> forty- TB>period of separation from Satan and restored the
 WC> Foundation of TB>Faith.
 WC>
 WC>     Moses spent his first forty years in Egypt as a son of
 WC> Pharaoh's daughter. If Egypt represents sin then Moses certainly
 WC> could not be said to have separated himself from Satan during
 WC> that time period. Rather to the contrary he was symbolically in
 WC> sin because he was still in Egypt (symbolic of sin). Therefore
 WC> while in Egypt he could not have fulfilled a 40 year period of
 WC> separation.

 Ok Walter,  what do you interpret the meaning of the number 40 to
 symbolize ?  It is used in many places like 40 days of rain on Noah, 40
 days fasting with Moses twice, and 40 days fasting with Jesus, and 40
 years of the Israelites in the desert, and 400 years of slavery when
 Abraham failed to complete the offering, and 400 years of preparation
 for the messiah after Malachi, and lots more places that are not on the
 top of my head right now. By the way did you know that Korea was
 occupied and oppressed by the Japanese from 1905 to 1945 ?   There is
 another 40 for you to ponder.

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Date       08-18-91 12:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC> TB>In establishing the Foundation of Faith,
 WC>
 WC>     Terry, this term is not found in the Bible. It is
 WC> extra-biblical.

 Look again :

 LUK 10:27   And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
             all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
             strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as
             thyself.

 Loving God is the foundation of faith ( vertical )  loving thy neighbor
 is the foundation of substance ( horizontal ).   Only Jacob and Esau
 have fulfilled both these conditions, and the Messiah came is Jacob's
 lineage AND Jacob was give the name Israel do you know what that means?

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Date       08-18-91 12:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC> TB>Moses at the same time qualified himself for the Abel
 WC> position in TB>the Foundation of substance.
 WC>
 WC>     There is nothing in Scripture to support this statement.
 WC> Abel was slain by his brother. Moses was not killed by anyone.

 I simply can't see why you can't understand the concept of the Abel
 person.  Able's offering was accepted by God meaning that he was closer
 to God.  Moses was in the Abel position to the Israelites people. God
 spoke to them through Moses. Jesus was in the Abel position to John the
 Baptist and the Jewish people. Jacob was in the Abel position to Esau.
 God always chooses a central figure then works through that person.  If
 people unite then all will be blessed:

 GEN 4:7     If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

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Date       08-18-91 12:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC> TB>The Israelites, who were in the Cain position, had to
 WC> faithfully TB>submit to and obey Moses, who was in the Abel
 WC> position.
 WC>     This is based upon the false premises of the Cain and Abel
 WC> story. It is not found in Scripture and is extra-biblical.

 So you want me to believe that God supported Moses in the working of all
 those miracles so the people would NOT submit to and obey Moses ?

 I'm showing you a much deeper meaning to these stories in the Bible.
 Many, many people have read and searched these scriptures and never
 understood these things.  You should pray more to understand the
 opportunity that is at hand.

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Date       08-18-91 12:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC> TB>After seeing Moses act in such a way, the Israelites should
 WC> have TB>trusted and united with Moses.
 WC>
 WC>     Why should they have trusted Moses? In their eyes he was not
 WC> one of them. They had no way of discerning his motives. He was
 WC> an Egyptian prince in their eyes regardless of his birth.

 Yes, one of them that turned sticks into snakes, and parted the sea, and
 was followed around by a cloud in the daytime and a pillar of fire at
 night. < snicker >   I couldn't resist a cheep shot.  < grin >

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Date       08-18-91 13:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.4 part 2/2

 WC> TB>The Israelites witnessed these and came to realize that Moses
 WC> was TB>the true leader sent by God.
 WC>
 WC>     If this were so then why did they reject his leadership and
 WC> complain and mummer against him so much? They did this from the
 WC> very beginning when the confrontation of wills between God and
 WC> Pharaoh was in progress.

 Fallen nature inherited from Satan.  The same fallen nature that
 repeated itself when fallen man MURDERED Christ.

 JOH 8:44    Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your
             father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and
             abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

 1JO 1:8     If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
             truth is not in us.


 I think you are catching on...  keep reading.  Your questions are
 getting much better.

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Date       08-19-91 15:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      ABRAHAM.3

 WC> P.S. Did you ever figure out why SFMAIL refuses to recognize the
 WC> Open Bible Echo?

 Humm, I didn't know this.  I have been very busy... trip to Philadelphia
 and then one to Monroe so I haven't had any free time to 'tweek' the
 system.

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Date       08-19-91 15:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 1/3

 WC> TB>In the course of restoration there comes a time when you must
 WC> TB>understand the voluntary submission of the person in Cain's
 WC> posi- TB>tion to the person in Abel's position.
 WC>
 WC>     This is not a teaching of Scripture. It is not a part of the
 WC> plan of salvation. It is extra-biblical. In any case it was
 WC> Jacob being submissive to Esau and not Esau to Jacob.

 Yes this is very scriptural.  There are many examples of God setting up
 a condition of selecting a central figure then giving the people the
 chance to get blessing, avoid judgement, and even attain salvation by
 uniting with His chosen representative.

 This is the one un-changing principle, formula, pattern that God follows
 in order to help man make a condition to come to His side.  Jesus said
 that Man is to rule the angels, but when we read about the fall of man
 we can see that an angel dominated man and rather than receiving love
 through Adam and Eve, he reversed the proper order and caused the fall.
 God loved Adam and Eve more than He did Lucifer and Lucifer's jealousy
 prevented him from following the proper order and receiving God's love
 through them.

 In the next generation after the fall, God again chose a central figure,
 Abel, and set up a condition for Cain to do what Lucifer couldn't do....
 receive God's love through the person God loves most. But Cain and Abel
 could not unite and Cain killed Abel.  It is pointless to blame either
 Cain or Abel because BOTH of them are responsible for making unity.  We
 do not find any example of Abel sympathizing with Cain and offering to
 help him get his offering accepted.

 Later on with Jacob and Esau, we see them in a similar situation. God
 loved Jacob more, thus Esau was supposed to receive God's love through
 God's chosen central figure.  Esau went out to meet Jacob with 400 armed
 men and was intending to kill him.  However, Jacob did what Abel did not
 do:  He sacrificed himself and everything he had to subjugate Esau with
 love and help him overcome the feelings of resentment.  Rather than
 killing Jacob, Esau overcame and they embarrassed.

 We can find many other examples of this principle God has used in the
 process of salvation, but the rest of them, except in Joshua h's case,
 followed the pattern of rejection like Lucifer and Cain did.

 Example:

 Noah's children did not unite with him even after he had saved them from
 the flood judgement. Rather than loving Noah and obeying him
 unconditionally, they judged him for laying naked and were cursed.

 The people of Sodom and Gomorrah would not obey Abraham and were
 destroyed.

 When Moses tried to lead the people they grumbled, complained, lost
 faith and were denied entrance into Canaan.

 When Jesus came he too was rejected by the people in the position of
 Cain to him.  Jesus was in the position of God to the people and they
 had do what Satan cannot do:  Humble themselves and receive God's love
 through Jesus,  God's central figure. But they MURDERED him.

 MAT 10:37   He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy
             of me:

 LUK 4:24    And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted
             in his own country.

 LUK 18:8    I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless
             when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the
             earth?

 Today we have a representative of God among us, but how is he received?

 Do you know the consequences of failing to recognize God's central
 figure, uniting and receive God's love through him ?  The results is
 that the fallen people remain under Satan's dominion.

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Date       08-19-91 16:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 1/3

 WC>     The victory was that two brothers were reconciled. It is not
 WC> a particularly big deal. It happens all the time today.

 You are missing a very important principle if this is all you come away
 from this story understanding.

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Date       08-19-91 16:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 1/3

 WC> TB>Since John the Baptist could not/did not unite in this
 WC> fashion TB>with Jesus, the results for Jesus was the
 WC> crucifixion...  much TB>like the same results for Abel.
 WC>
 WC>     There is nothing in the Bible which even suggests that they
 WC> should have done so.

 What leads you to think that John didn't need to follow Jesus ?  Do you
 think John was perfect ? You must not have any idea of how many times
 Jesus told people to 'Follow Me" ?

 JOH 12:26   If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
             there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him
             will [my] Father honour.

 MAT 19:21   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell
             that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have
             treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

 The above verse clearly explains why John the Baptist will be lesser
 than the least in the Kingdom.  John did not follow Jesus.

 Show me one, just one, example of John the Baptist following Jesus.

 In fact John contradicted Jesus and in effect called Jesus a liar: Jesus
 said John in Elijah  (  Matt. 11:44 )

 John said he was not Elijah:  JOH 1:21    And they asked him, What then?
 Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he
 answered, No.


 The only place we find anyone humbling themselves to God's chosen
 representative and making a condition of receiving God's love through
 God's central figure is when Esau united with Jacob.  This is the one
 thing Satan CANNOT do.  In order to separate from Satan, fallen man must
 unite with God's champion.  But seldom does it happen:

 LUK 4:24    And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted
             in his own country.


 You should at least begin to understand the Cain - Abel relationship and
 how important it is to one's salvation.  You have invested a tremendous
 amount of heart and effort in studying and practicing a spiritual way of
 life. That puts you in the Abel position to people who have never
 experienced God or taken the time and made the effort to understand the
 spiritual side of life.  As the person in the Abel position, you can
 lead people who are in the Cain position to find and accept Christ. But
 at the same time you are in the Cain position to other people who are
 closer to God.  Just as people in the Cain position to you must be
 humble and receive God's love and truth through you, you must do the
 same to the people in the Abel position to you.  We all want to be in
 the Abel position and be loved the most, accepted, and favored by God,
 but we don't think about the requirements of sacrifice, the burden of
 misunderstanding and persecution such a position requires.  When you
 read about the 21 years of suffering in Haran and the condition of total
 unselfishness that Jacob made for his brother, then you can understand
 some of the requirements for the person in the Abel position.   Jesus
 suffered much more than Jacob, but unlike Esau, the people would not
 embrace him.

 Are you going to embrace the central figure God had chosen for our time
 when you find him ?   This person will certainly appear abnormal by
 ordinary human standards.  He won't be popular either.  Few have
 succeeded in humbling themselves to receive God's love through the
 person God has chosen as His representative.   Yes, the way is narrow
 and now you know why... you must do what Satan can't do.  You must gain
 your own personal victory over the fallen nature you inherited from the
 fall of man.  If you don't bear fruit do you know what will happen ? May
 I suggest you read Mat 21:19

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Date       08-19-91 17:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 1/3

 WC> TB>and this can be done by doing what Satan can't do....
 WC> sacrifice TB>for others.
 WC>
 WC>     That is not what the Bible says. The only sacrifice needed
 WC> is Jesus. He is our sacrifice. He paid the sacrificial price the
 WC> we could not pay.

 This is what the Bible says:

 MAT 16:24    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come
 after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
 MAR 8:34     And when he had called the people [unto him] with his
 disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him
 deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
 LUK 9:23     And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me,
 let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
 2TI 2:13    If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful:
             he cannot deny himself.

 If we believe not, he cannot deny himself.

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Date       08-19-91 17:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 2/3

 WC>     You see, Terry, your teaching on faith is contradictory to
 WC> what Scripture says. You are telling us that man can establish
 WC> faith by his own works. The Bible says it is all in Jesus.

 Are trying to teach us that everyone already loves God and wants to
 serve Him ?  My believe is that it is much easier to act selfishly than
 to be God like and sacrifice for others.  Effort therefore must made to
 make a foundation of faith ( a vertical connection to God ).

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Date       08-19-91 17:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 3/3

 WC>     The Bible is the progressive of God's revelation of Himself
 WC> to man. That does involve a lot of history and the relationships
 WC> of people to each other and to God. It is not record of God's
 WC> "attempt." The word suggests that God is fallible. He is not.

 If you knew the heart of God you would know that God has wanted to
 restore man since day 1 after the fall, but Salvation is not entirely up
 to God.  Man made the choice to disobey God, so Salvation requires man's
 conscious effort to obey God.

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Date       08-19-91 17:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Abraham.5 part 3/3

 WC> was not continuous in nature. Besides, under persecution those
 WC> who truly believe are quickly weeded out from those who only pay
 WC> lip service to God. The true believers continue while the others
 WC> fall

 AMEN !   Why don't you join the Church that is most severely persecuted
 at this time in history ?  ( I don't mean you should go to the Kingdom
 Hall, or the Temple with Maroni on top... I think I know where there is
 more persecution... even their minister has been imprisoned by the U.S.
 Government ).

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Date       08-19-91 18:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 1/2

 WC>     Scripture does not agree with your view that Judas deposed
 WC> Christ. Neither does it call him a hero. It rather condemns him
 WC> for betrayal.

 But your teaching requires someone to do what Judas did.  Why wouldn't
 that make that person a hero ?  If Judas had failed, then Christ ssed.

 I wonder myself.  Maybe it is just too easy to put a label on people who
 have different beliefs than it is to try to understand and discuss
 their doctrine on the merit of the ideas and opinions they have formed.

 WC>     I will probably be somewhat limited in my time on the echo

 Wait !  I'm just getting started.   The really good stuff will be coming
 up soon.  < grin >

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Date       08-19-91 18:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.1

 MJ> AHA!! So, you admit that Jesus spoke of "love" and practiced the
 MJ> opposite!

 Humm,  I find this particularly strange since I have been corresponding
 with Walter for about a year and I don't recall him ever mentioning
 Jesus practicing hate.   Walter certainly doen't agree with much of my
 doctrine, but he never told me that Jesus practiced the opposite of
 love.  I'm sure I would have picked up on that b weeded out from those who only pay
 WC> lip service to God. The true believers continue while the others
 WC> fall

 AMEN !   Why don't you join the Church that is most severely persecuted
 at this time in history ?  ( I don't mean you should go to the Kingdom
 Hall, or the Temple with Maroni on top... I think I know where there is
 more persecution... even their minister has been imprisoned by the U.S.
 Government ).

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Date       08-19-91 18:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 1/2

 WC>     He has already come born of a woman just like Scripture said
 WC> he would. He will come back the second time in the clouds in
 WC> glory just like Scripture says or we can conclude that God has
 WC> lied to us. I do not believe that God lied to us.

 Neither do I, but that does not rule out the possibility of mis-guided
 interpretations either does it ?  Why can't you accept the possibility
 that the clouds in this scripture could be symbolic of purified people
 (believers) ?  After all, other scripture says the waters are fallen
 people and we know that clouds are purified water.  AND how about this:

 HEB 12:1    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a
             cloud of witnesses,


 You do know that when the Bible says our Father who art in heaven, it
 does not mean that God lives in the literal sky.

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Date       08-19-91 18:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 1/2

 WC>     Actually it was Judas supporting Satan. Judas made a choice
 WC> of will.

 True, and it was not God's will !

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Date       08-19-91 18:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 1/2

 WC>     There is absolutely not one single Scripture in the Bible
 WC> that tells us that God wants Grandchildren.

 Sure there is !   Haven't you read that God told Adam and Eve to
 multiply ?   Who's kids did God really want Adam and Eve to have ?
 ....His or those of the Snake ?

 We know they had children that manifested Satan's character and nature:

 JOH 8:44    Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your
             father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,

 Some things are so obvious to me I can't see why they aren't clear to
 everyone.  If Perry Mason was going to represent you in a movie, do you
 think it would be necessary to ask if you were going to be found guilty?

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Date       08-19-91 18:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 2/2

 WC>     I have understood what you have been saying. However it does
 WC> not harmonize with Scripture and in some cases is directly
 WC> contradicted by Scripture. I have posted a number of Scriptures
 WC> which contradict you theology. I have yet to see any attempt to

 Not in my eyes, the scripture you posted was intended to prop up your
 interpretations.

 WC> harmonize what you believer with what God has to say. Neither
 WC> have I seen any demonstration of power and authority whereby you
 WC> can claim to contravene the written word of God.

 What's the point of this demonstration of power and authority ?  Did
 such a demonstration help Moses ?

 NUM 16:41    But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of
              Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye
              have killed the people of the Lord.
 DEU 1:27     And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD
              hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of
              Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to
              destroy us.

 And how about Jesus ?   How did his audience respond to his
 demonstrations ?

 MAR 3:22    And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He
             hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he
             out devils.
 LUK 11:15   But some of them said, He casteth out devils through
             Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

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Date       08-19-91 18:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 2/2

 WC> TB>Originally God planned on Jesus being accepted and then he
 WC> would TB>have been able to marry and raise sinless children...
 WC> this was the TB>favorable option #1.
 WC>
 WC>     Yes, you have said this before but it does not harmonize
 WC> with Scripture. There is absolutely no prophecy anywhere in the
 WC> Old Testa- ment telling us that Jesus was supposed to marry and
 WC> raise sinless children. I have, in fact, posted you a number of
 WC> Scriptures which prophecy the First Advent of Jesus as a baby
 WC> and His death on the cross. These prophecies are in considerable
 WC> detail. We have yet to see these address and harmonized with
 WC> your theology.

 Just try thinking !   It was prophesied that Jesus would become King of
 Kings...  what kind of King has no Queen ?  What kind of King has no
 descendants to inherit his Kingdom ?   How could Jesus fulfill the
 second blessing and MULTIPLY without a Bride ?   Why are we waiting on
 the Marriage supper of the Lamb ?   The prophecy of Jesus's death on the
 cross was exactly like the prophecy of the destruction of Sodom and
 Gomorrah or Nineveh.  It was a possibility if the people failed to
 repent !  Every prophecy is dual in nature.  If Adam and Eve had not
 taken the forbidden fruit, they would have lived.

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Date       08-19-91 18:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 2/2

 WC> TB>However there was the 2nd option that was a possibility: the
 WC> TB>people would not have faith, they would reject Jesus...
 WC>
 WC>     No. God is omniscient. He knew from the beginning what would
 WC> happen. If not then how do you account for the scripture which
 WC> says: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
 WC> whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
 WC> slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8).

 So are you teaching us that some of us are saved and some are not,
 regardless if we accept Christ or not ?

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Date       08-19-91 18:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 2/2

 WC> TB>who was in the Abel position and they would too would have to
 WC> deal TB>with sin and overcome it..
 WC>
 WC>     This is clearly contradictory to New Testament teaching.
 WC> Jesus was never in the "Abel position." Neither does the New

 The one in the Abel position is the one favored by God.  Wasn't Abel's
 offering accepted ?   Didn't God love Jacob ?  Didn't God love Jesus ?
 God always sacrifices the person in the Abel position (closest to Him)
 for those father away ( in the Cain position).  You know you may be
 called upon by God to sacrifice yourself for those who do not know Him.
 You could be asked to become a missionary in a foreign land, or stand
 on the street corner and sell flowers to raise funds to build the
 Kingdom of Heaven. You are in the Abel position to a lot of people and
 God will work through you and ask you to be an offering to bring others
 closer to Him.

 WC> Testament teach any such thing anywhere. It is extra-biblical.
 WC> The New Testament is very clear that we are saved by faith and
 WC> not works. You are certainly advocating salvation by the works
 WC> of men.

 Well be it. If God calls you to sacrifice your family, your job and
 even to do like Abraham and sacrifice the one thing you love more than
 your own life ( your Isaac ) and go to a foreign country and become a
 missionary, tell God He is advocating salvation by works and it is not
 necessary !

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Date       08-19-91 19:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3 part 2/2

 WC>     Jesus and John the Baptist were cousins not brothers. The
 WC> unity which was supposed to be established was. There is nothing
 WC> in the New Testament to say different. John even stated by the
 WC> inspiration of the Holy Spirit that he must decrease and that
 WC> Jesus must increase.

 They had the same father:

 LUK 1:5      There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a
 certain priest named Zacharias,

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Date       08-19-91 21:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Paul Lenzmeier @ 960/1
Subject     Bethels Hope

 PL> I think you just lost them, Daniel.  You do have a hangup with
 PL> names, don't you.  First Jehovah, then Tim Of_Angle (you made a
 PL> big stink out of that one with your phone book and all), and now
 PL> Bethle Hope.  You are sure a paranoid being when it comes to
 PL> names.  I guess that could be another sign of a cult, huh.

 Either that or abiding by Fido network rules ?  What are you trying to
 hide ?

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Date       08-19-91 21:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Weaver
Subject    Integration 1 of 9

 GW> My name is Gary Weaver. The file you are about to read,
 GW> Integration and Interracial Marriage, was downloaded from a BBS
 GW> in Florida. It is...

 ...most likely one that R.S. and his KKK buddies opperates.

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Date       08-19-91 22:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dave Jones
Subject     Holy Spirit

 DJ> Why do you suppose Jesus shows himself as praying to the Father
 DJ> and also shows himself as in submission to the Father?

 You may as well give up.... the trinitarian and even the oneness folks
 will never answer this question.  I have seen them being asked about
 this over and over and the only time they dared to reply the conclusion
 was obviously pointing to a polytheistic doctrine.

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Date       08-20-91 07:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dan Singleton
Subject    JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

 DS> in Noah's time, that it will be destroyed by fire at the day of
 DS> the Lord?

 JAM 3:6     And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the
 tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth
 on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

 LUK 12:49   I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it
 be already kindled?

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Date       08-20-91 07:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Boerma
Subject          Messiah

 CB>    Are you saying then that God can not exist without us?

 No, I am saying that God created us because He wanted to experience Joy
 and Happiness and to be Loved.  These feelings can not be experienced in
 solitary confinement.  God created man in His own image to have an
 object that could respond

 CB> Doesn't that take away from a All-Powerful God? I agree that he

 God created man to be equal to Him and share His power.   I know this is
 not a popular idea.  I should have learned from Jesus that this would
 get me into trouble:

 JOH 5:18    Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he
             not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was
             his Father, making himself equal with God.
                                        ^^^^^

 CB> wants us in his universe and gains plesure when we serve him
 CB> (he'd just destroy us if he didn't), but Does that mean
 CB> he NEEDS us??

 Yes God NEEDS man, if God didn't have a need for man then we may as well
 give up our search for Him because if he doesn't need us we would never
 find Him.

 You apparently have missed the most fundamental aspect of God's nature.
 God is first and foremost a parent.  What parent could say: "Gee these
 kids sure are bad, let's just kill them and make some more"   ?


 CR> There is a difference I think. Yes God wants us,
 CB> but no God doesn't need us.


 Think about the subject - object relationship some more.  Can a husband
 be a husband without a wife ?   Can a parent be a parent without
 Children ?  In any situation where love where is expressed, you will
 find a subject - object relationship in effect.   God does need man.

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Date       08-20-91 14:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      MOSES.2

 WC> WC> TB>Because of the Fall, even man's dead body belongs to
 WC> Satan. WC>     Can you give us scriptural reference for this
 WC> statement? The WC> physical body is dead. There is no life in
 WC> it. It returns to WC> dust or ashes if cremated. Satan has not
 WC> use for a dead body. He WC> cannot use it.
 WC>
 WC> TB>ROM 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against
 WC> the TB>law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law
 WC> of sin TB>which is in my members.
 WC>
 WC>     I'm afraid that you havae taken the Scripture out of
 WC> context. It is not speaking of a dead body.

 If your physical body in under the influence/dominion of Satan while you
 are alive, what is dieing going to change to bring your corps to God?

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Date       08-20-91 14:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      MOSES.2

 WC> nal life. Whatever Romans 7 means, in view of the strong
 WC> teaching of chapters 6 and 8 it cannot mean the sinful nature
 WC> still controls Christians or forces them to sin on a regular
 WC> basis.

 Regular or irregular,   ...still imperfect and therefore under the
 influence of Satan an sin.   God is perfect therefore the objects of His
 direct dominion must also be perfected.  While we are in an imperfect
 state we cannot directly communicate with God ( except under rare
 circumstances), therefore God must guide an teach us through indirect
 methods, like scripture, and the messages I've been posting.

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Date       08-20-91 14:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      MOSES.2

 TB>1. find the messiah

 TB>2. follow the messiah

 WC>     Unfortunately you answer tells me nothing that can be used.
 WC> Why not offer the answer which is contained in the Scripture?

      1.

 MAT 10:41  He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall
            receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous
            man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous
            man's reward.  < He who findeth neither gets no reward. >
      2.

 JOH 12:26   If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
             there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him
             will [my] Father honour.

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Date       08-20-91 14:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      MOSES.3

 WC> TB>there is nothing more important to you than understanding the
 WC> TB>course of restoration.
 WC>
 WC>     But there is, Terry. That is personal salvation.


 To be saved means to be RESTORE.   How can you be restored if you don't
 know the method and pattern God has been using to subjugitae Satan
 through the course of history.  Would you attempt to fly a jet plane
 with no training or prior knowledge of how it works ?   Yet you think
 you can just up and leave Satan's dominion and stroll over to live with
 God.  It is not that simple, you have to FIRST confront and defeat Satan
 on a personal level.  If salvation were really so easy as you have us to
 believe everyone would be saved. But your teaching is Extra-Biblical
 because the Scripture says the way is narrow...


 MAT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed
          [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in
          no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 MAT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
          into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
          Father which is in heaven.

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Date       08-20-91 14:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      MOSES.3

 WC> John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
 WC> will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
 WC> himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak:
 WC> and he will shew you things to come.

 That's exactly the prophecy I have been fulfulling by guiding you into
 all truth.  You just haven't seen the light yet.  You will though.

 WC>     The Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit. Those who are filled
 WC> with the Holy Spirit and are led by the Spirit (sons of God)
 WC> will be guided into all truth.

 Could that Spirit be the Messiah ?

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Date       08-20-91 15:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      MOSES.3

 WC> will come back in like manner in which He ascended and that
 WC> every eye will behold Him. Since this is what the Bible says the
 WC> true Messiah cannot be walking around on the earth.

 Why ?   You have seen him.  You quickly forget that Jesus said he
 ASCENDED from heaven the first time but we know he was born of Mary.
 You should be more careful in your evaluation of what it means to
 ascend.

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Date       08-20-91 15:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Why You Can Trust The Bib

 CR>  While some may claim the Bible contradicts itself, has anyone
 CR> ever shown you an actual example? We have never seen one that
 CR> can withstand scrutiny.

 Scrutinize this one:

 GEN 7:1     And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house
             into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in
             this generation.

 Was Noah Righteous ?

 ROM 3:10    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 Was Noah Righteous ?

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Date       08-20-91 18:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Johnson
Subject      JAHOVAH'S WITNESSESSES

 GJ> I guess I get my back up when I hear someone intimate (for lack
 GJ> of a better word) that because I am a Born again believer, that
 GJ> I am in a cult. Knowing something of cults i general, and one in
 GJ> particular, I guess I am too touchy on this.

 You should know that when someone uses a term lie 'cult' they are
 usually tyring to put a label on someone they feel superior to just like
 biggots use terms like Nigger, Spick and Gook.   None of them know the
 reality that their faith began as a cult.

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Date       08-20-91 18:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Johnson
Subject      SPIRITS OF THE DEAD

 GJ> ->  Check out "naked and unashamed"  before the fall and the
 GJ> "ashamed of ->  their nakedness" after the fall.   Also think
 GJ> about what kind of ->  fruit is really more desirable than life
 GJ> ? Could it be a real fruit? OK I will check that out. I had
 GJ> always thought the the shame of their nakedness you refer to was
 GJ> the result of eating of the tree of life, when they ate, they
 GJ> realized this. But still, I am in a haze just yet. But rest
 GJ> assured I will delve into it and let you know what i find out,
 GJ> ok?

 If they were eating they should have covered their mouth.  It is man's
 nature to hide what he does wrong and what he does it with.

 And while you are digging, see what you come up with on the tree of
 life.  Is it a literal tree or symbolic ?    I think there are 4 other
 mentions about the tree of life in the Bible.  If you do conclude it
 could have been symbolic, it will be obvious that real fruit doesn't
 grow on symbolic trees.  Anway the only sin that Adam and Eve would have
 committed at the cost of their life was probably not eating.  Most
 likely it was a sin involving love.  After all, love is the only thing
 more desirable than life, and we know the fruit they ate was more
 desirable than life because they took it even though God told them
 clearly that if the did eat it they would die.

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Date       08-20-91 20:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Pedro Vega
Subject     Polytheism?  Gimme a bre

 PV>     Oh, com'on Terry.  You know that's not true.  Orthodox
 PV> Christiniaty believe in one God.  As Man, Jesus prayed to the
 PV> Father and was subject to Him.  As the Word, He was God from the
 PV> beginning.  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share
 PV> one divine Nature.  This Nature is incommunicable to creatures.
 PV> It's unique
 PV> to the Deity.  Now, if we say that there are THREE divine
 PV> natures, then we would be polytheistic.  We don't say that, so
 PV> we aren't.

 They certainly tell everyone they believe in one God but it takes three
 beings with distinct personalities and characters to make up this one
 God.    The real question should be:  If God really consists of these
 three beings, then how could God exist before the 'son nature' was
 manifested in the flesh.  In other words how does a three legged stool
 stand with one leg missing.  Jesus was only a physical man on earth for
 33 years.  If your doctrine stands that is the only period it really has
 three legs to stand on.

 No, my friend, the only way God can be manifested on earth is through
 the establishment of God centered parents.   It takes both a man and
 woman joined in marriage to fully represent God on earth.

 GEN 1:27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God
             created he him; male and female created he them.

 Did you forger to read page one ?  < smile >

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Date       08-20-91 20:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Pedro Vega
Subject     Polytheism?  Gimme a bre

 PV>     "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
 PV> nei-     ther confounding the Persons: nor dividing the
 PV> Substance. For     there is one Person of the Father, another of
 PV> the Son: and anoth-     er of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of
 PV> the Father, of the Son,     and of the Holy Ghost is all one:

 You can certainly say that 3 = 1 but don't expect the IRS to belive it.
 ( unless you are sending in 3 dollars for every 1 you owe )
 Your math is incorrect this program would never compile either.

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Date       08-20-91 20:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Pedro Vega
Subject     Polytheism?  Gimme a bre

 PV>     the Substance of his Mother, born in the world: perfect God
 PV> and     perfect Man: of a reasonable soul and human flesh
 PV> subsisting;     equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead:
 PV> and inferior to the     Father, as touching his Manhood. Who,
 PV> although he be God and Man,

 Check your math ? You have both equal to and not equal to in the same
 equation. It should be obvious why intellectual people like Mormons,
 Jw's and Unificationist have trouble with this.  They have read
 scripture:

 MAT 19:17   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is]
             none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter
             into life, keep the commandments.
 MAR 10:18   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there
             is] none good but one, [that is], God.
 LUK 18:19   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is]
             good, save one, [that is], God.

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Date       08-20-91 23:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject     Holy Spirit

 LW> Because He is not God the Father, He is God the Son.
                        ^                     ^
                        1           +         1           =  2


 Finally you have come out of the closet and admitted you are a
 polytheist.

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Date       08-20-91 23:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject     JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

 LW> >JAM 3:6     And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so
 LW> is the >tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole
 LW> body, and setteth >on fire the course of nature; and it is set
 LW> on fire of hell.
 LW> Terry
 LW>
 LW> This would be good if the tongue was the ONLY fire mention in
 LW> the Bible.

 In the Bible fire frequently used symbolizes truth.  Did Jesus strike
 matches ?   ha ha ha

 LUK 12:49   I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it
             be already kindled?

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Date       08-21-91 09:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Michael Jones
Subject     RESTORE.1

 MJ> Sort of lost here, but Jesus spoke of "love" while speaking of
 MJ> destruction too.  Mercy while expediting vengance.  Etc.  He
 MJ> wove a wonderful web of contradictory concepts that leaves the
 MJ> question--how can God be love and hate?  how can God

 Could it be that you may have interpreted God's wrath as hate ?  To love
 means that one always follows a pattern  of unselfishness, therefore to
 hate would be some form of selfishness.  Do you see any evidence that
 God has ever acted selfishly ?

 MJ> be mercy and justice? how can God be slow to anger yet swift in
 MJ> punishment?

 Maybe you aren't a parent, but if you can view the relationship between
 man and God as a parent - child relationship, it can help explain God's
 situation.

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Date       08-21-91 21:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject      Brothers and Childrldre

 MS> But you do hold up his _divine principle_ as being not only on
 MS> par with the Bible, but also superior to it.  And _dp_ makes all
 MS> those claims: that Moon is perfect,

 Why don't you tell me what page this info can be found on ?

 TB>  Why are you so worked up about Rev Moon anyway ?
 MS> If I want to make TB>  him MY messiah that shouldn't bother you.

 MS> Why?  Because he is a false prophet that you are holding up as a
 MS> messiah. And that bother me because of regardless of what you
 MS> have said and believe, you are still a fallen descendant of
 MS> Adam, just as I am, and need the salvation that only
 MS> Christ and His sacrifice can give you.  And as long as you are
 MS> listening and following Moon, you will be following something
 MS> completely contrary and foriegn to the message of Christ.

 Isn't this exactly the same warning that given about following Jesus ?

 You should find out what kind of reputation Jesus had in his day:

 MAT 12:24   But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow]
             doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the
             devils.
 MAR 3:22    And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He
             hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he
             out devils.
 LUK 7:34    The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say,
             Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of
             publicans and sinners!


 MS> TB>  You are simply ignorant of what Rev Moon is trying to do,
 MS> and who he is.
 MS> TB>  Ignorance is curable.

 MS> Then why don't you open your eyes, and read the Bible for
 MS> yourself, without the sufficating filters of the Unification
 MS> Church in front of your eyes? I know what Moon is doing.  He's
 MS> leading you straight down a road to Hell....

 You said it best, I'll just quote you:

 MS>  Be careful of judging things you have no knowledge of.

 You really don't want to discuss Biblical issues or you would reply to
 at least some of the messages I enter on a daily basis.  All you seem to
 be interested in is bashing my minister.

 ACS 5:38    And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them
             alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will
             come to nought:
 ACS 5:39    But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye
             be found even to fight against God.
 ACS 5:40    And to him they agreed: and when they had called the
             apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should
             not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
 ACS 5:41    And they departed from the presence of the council,
             rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for
             his name.

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Date       08-21-91 21:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject     Cults: Addition

 KK> Also  Brigham Young said, "If our Father and God should be
 KK> disposed to walk  through  these  aisles,  we  should not know
 KK> Him from one of the congregation.

 This is beautiful.  Makes me want to be a Mormon.  I would like to live
 in a world where everyone was so perfected that even God would not
 stand out in the crowd.   I think God would like this situation too.

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Date       08-21-91 21:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject     Cults: Addition

 KK> The  Bible  says  that  Jesus  created everything in heaven and
 KK> earth.

 Your imigaination is running away with you.  It was God the father that
 created everything.

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Date       08-21-91 21:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject     Cults: Addition

 KK> LDS  believe that God is now on a planet near the star Kolob,

 Humm, isn't Kolob located at the right hand of the father ?

 You want to make this look silly but if you tell someone where you think
 Jesus is it sounds just as foolish to them to say he is at the right
 hand of God.

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Date       08-21-91 21:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject     Jehovah'S Name Vs. R.

 KK> You have  to  question  the intelligence of any JW.  I
 KK> just wish they knew the Holy Spirit, he would set them all
 KK> straight.

 Sounds like a pentecostal is questioning the intelligence of a Jw ?  We
 must be in the last days if pentecostals are getting intellectuals. I
 though faith and reason did not need to be reconciled in your faith ?

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Date       08-21-91 22:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject      JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

 LW> What is this fire?  It was said that Jesus would baptize with
 LW> fire.

 Fire is truth...  hasn't your mother ever scolded you ?

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Date       08-23-91 08:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Cults: Addition

 7KK>   Your forgeting the Bible says Jesus  and  God are one whether
 KK> you like   it or not. But,  since your in  a  cult,  I don't
 KK> think you'll  accept   this.

 You make it sound like I got a disease.  ha ha ha

 You are in a cult too. Is that what impedes your understanding ?
 I doubt it, it is most likely your hard headedness.

 By the way this is what the Bible says about God and Jesus:

 MAR 13:32    But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not
              the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
              Father.
 If they were really one, they would know the same things.

 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
             [him] in spirit and in truth.
 Jesus came in the Flesh.

 JOH 8:54    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
             it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he
             is your God:
 Jesus said his Father was God.

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;
 This is too obvious to comment on.

 COL 3:1     If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which
             are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
 So, how can God sit at his own right hand ?

 JOH 5:19    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I
             say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what
             he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
             these also doeth the Son likewise.
 Jesus couldn't do whatever he wanted.  Doesn't sound much like God to
 me.

 1JO 4:14    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the
             Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
 God sent Jesus...  Why didn't it say God sent Himself ?

 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
 Does both mean one ?

 GEN 1:27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God
             created he him; male and female created he them.
 Jesus was a man but God is both male and female.

 2CO 4:4     In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of
             them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
             gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine
             unto them.
 Did you see that ?  'Image of God'... Go to D.C. and check out the image
 of Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial and ask is this Abe himself ?


 ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
             afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
             me.
 So is God talking to Himself ?

 You can clearly see why 'cult' members are confused... they are reading
 the Bible.

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Date       08-23-91 08:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Eugene Humbert
Subject     Cults: Addition

 EH> > No but the beliefs of the Trinity are everywhere in Bible.
 EH>
 EH> Prove it.  You are making a statement of faith, not of fact.

 He doens't know the difference.  Most likely a pretty young dude...

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Date       08-23-91 14:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Jehovah'S Name Vs. R.

 KK>   How do you gain salvation?

 1.  Find the messiah
 2.  Follow the messiah

 When you become an extension of the messiah, you must do as he does...
 Sacrifice yourself for the sake of the world.

 MAT 5:46    For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do
             not even the publicans the same?
 LUK 6:32    For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for
             sinners also love those that love them.

 All of your messages to me make me feel like you are twiddling your
 fingers in my face while saying "I'm saved... too bad for you."   Is
 this the way I'm supposed to feel in the presence of a saved person ?

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Date       08-23-91 16:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject     BETTER LATE THAN NEVNE

 JT> implied, and then they will say, "But that's not Orthodox!"--and
 JT> you've lost the debate right there
 JT> and then.  No matter how well-reasoned your arguments, they fall
 JT> now upon deliberately deafened ears.

 Yes, this is pretty much the way it is.  But today's heresy is
 tomorrow's  'Orthodoxy'.   Remember the #1 law of church history is to
 damn the heretic and adopt the heresy.  Just browse the conclusions of
 the church councils of Nicea (325), Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), II
 Constantinople ( 553), and III Constantinople (680) concerning the
 Christological issues raised by Nestorius to see this law in effect.

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Date       08-23-91 16:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject     BETTER LATE THAN NEVNE

 JT> real validity.  In fact, it might even be suggested that one of the
 JT> greatest strengths of your doctrine is the HUMAN need for God to
 JT> have a wife, totally irrelevant to the issue of whether God,
 JT> Himself, needs one.

 Unlike the Mormon belief that God has a wife, the Divine Principle
 teaches that God has within Himself both masculine and feminine
 characteristics that were divided as His image was projected into the
 creation.  This would mean that God can only be represented in the flesh
 as parents.  Since not only Adam fell, but also Eve, there must be a
 woman-christ to fulfill the position of true mother.  An important theme
 of the New Testament is the bride and bridegroom.  Jesus knew it was
 important to marry and was looking forward to the day he could restore a
 woman to fulfill the position Eve had attained before the fall.  Since
 he was crucified, we are still awaiting the marriage supper of the Lamb.
 Through Jesus and the Holy Spirit Christians can be born again.  Since
 birth implies parents, rebirth also implies parents.  Jesus, in the
 Father position, and the Holy Spirit in the Mother position supply the
 necessary conditions for fallen man to be born again.  However, true
 parents must be physically established on earth so that fallen man can
 go beyond rebirth to the stage of adoption into the Messiah's physical
 family.

 Now from Satan's viewpoint this is the beginning of the end.  In other
 words the last days.  The last days are not only the last days of evil
 but also the First Days of goodness.  Even though fallen man can never
 do enough to restore himself, by engrafting to Christ and becoming
 adopted into his family, the condition is made for fallen man's children
 to be in the messiah's lineage.   Get the picture ?

 If Jesus had married, then what would he have told his followers ? Could
 he say  "you are sinful and must remain single and celibant" ?
 Obliviously such a teaching would be crippled.  Jesus would have been in
 the position to bless his faithful followers in marriage.  Now if Jesus
 said it was ok to marry, would it have been ok with God ?  ( since you
 view Jesus as God, you have to agree that it would be ok with God <grin>

 Once people like Peter and Paul were married, when they started having
 children of their own, can you see the problem Satan would have in
 claiming these children ?  If God blessed your parents in marriage, then
 Satan could not say that you belonged to him.  His kingdom would be on
 the way out.  And the last thing Satan wants is lots of God's children
 coming into his dominion...  because they can manifest the true love of
 God and the true love of God makes self-centered satanic love far less
 attractive.   In fact, once fallen man starts to experience the true
 love of God, the most powerful drugs like crack and heroin aren't strong
 enough anymore.  God created love as the most powerful force in the
 universe, so when it is experienced in the purest form, it is very
 addictive.

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Date       08-23-91 16:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject     BETTER LATE THAN NEVNE

 JT> Church to have a wife!  Christ at best only half God?  But that
 JT> can't be true--He's consubstantial with the Father; also, the
 JT> prayers of the Church speak of Christ our God!  So I'm sorry,
 JT> sir; your ideas are interesting, but they simply must
 JT> be wrong, because clearly they are not Orthodox.

 Well Orthodoxy changes...    and the time is coming when people will
 realize that families not individuals are the building blocks for the
 Kingdom of Heaven.  Look at the success of family centered religions
 like Mormonism for evidence of God's blessing.  God created the family
 as the institution to teach people about love.  In the family you can
 learn about vertical love ( piety ), horizontal love ( sibling and
 conjugal ), and parental love.  Without passing these required courses,
 a person cannot qualify to graduate.

 You are correct that celibacy is the highest form of spirituality before
 the Marriage of the Lamb, but I believe that marriage took place in
 1960.  So great changes are underway.  Once the spiritual world realizes
 the marriage has take place, the spiritual support for choosing an
 um-married life will dwindle.  You can see this has become a reality in
 just 31 years.  When the spiritual world no longer supports Orthodoxy,
 it is doomed to become heresy.

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Date       08-23-91 17:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject     BETTER LATE THAN NEVNE

 JT> No malice at all, no resentment, just a simple certainty that
 JT> can never hope to be complexified into open-mindedness.

 Yes, I know.   Btw I got all your messages this time.  Whatever you did
 seems to help... maybe the message was just shorter ?    What is
 happening to the Rime conference you were talking about ?   I got
 censored and put on probation for my unpopular interpretations of the
 scripture in the Rime Bible echo and ended up shaking the dust and
 dropping it from my BBS.   Seems they are content in practicing
 spiritual masterbation and felt threatened my intellectual superiority
 < grin >. Well it is like someone said, "The human mind treats a new
 idea like the body does a new protein; it REJECTS it !"

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Date       08-23-91 17:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject     BETTER LATE THAN NEVNEVE

 JT> This third alternative, quite simply, is to stipulate that God
 JT> is vastly wiser than Satan, and not too proud to "use" Satan for
 JT> His own ends, in other
 JT> words to manipulate Satan the way a con-man manipulates a mark,
 JT> to motivate him, using his
 JT> own greed, ignorances, and other vices and weaknesses, to force
 JT> him to do precisely what his manipulator wants him to do.

 My problem with this is:   If God wanted Jesus to come and get killed,
 why let so many people know He was sending His son.   After all, Adam
 and Eve disappointed God, couldn't the Jewish people have done likewise?
 If God wanted Jesus killed, He should have secretly sent him to a
 barbaric tribe or even as Cain's brother rather than take a chance the
 people would find faith.  The idea that God knew before hand that the
 Jewish people would absolutely crucify Christ is absolute
 predestination.   I don't think you believe in absolute predestination
 do you ?

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Date       08-23-91 17:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Moses.4 part 1/2

 WC>     Prior to the Law man sacrificed animals. The Law specified
 WC> which animals were acceptable as a sacrifice. Blood sacrifice
 WC> did not end until Jesus died on the cross. Therefore the

 No, ask any person of the Jewish faith and they will tell you that when
 the angel of the Lord stopped Abraham from killing Isaac, that was the
 end of the age of 'blood sacrifice'.    You should know this.

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Date       08-23-91 17:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Moses.4 part 2/2

 WC>     No, the Israelites were instructed personally by God to
 WC> build the tabernacle in the wilderness. The tabernacle came
 WC> first. The temple was built upon the pattern of the tabernacle.
 WC> The building of the temple was not God's command. It originated
 WC> with David.

 How can people who are moving on a daily basis take a temple with them ?
 God is practical you know.

 And here is why they had to wonder in the wilderness 40 years:

 NUM 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made
           them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the
           generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was
           consumed.

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Date       08-23-91 17:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Moses.4 part 2/2

 WC>     Where is your Scripture reference that the tablets
 WC> symbolized Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

 1CO 10:4    And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank
             of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was
             Christ.

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Date       08-23-91 17:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Moses.4 part 2/2

 WC> TB>For this reason, God found it necessary to create an object
 WC> of TB>faithwhich would never change, even though man might
 WC> change.
 WC>     Sounds good but what is the scriptural reference for this
 WC> thought?

 EXO 30:16   And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of
             Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the
             tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial
             unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an
             atonement for your souls.

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Date       08-23-91 17:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Moses.4 part 2/2

 WC>     There is no such thing in the Bible as "the national
 WC> Foundation of Substance." The concept is extra-biblical. It is

 Sure there is:   You see, since the satanic world had advanced to a
 national level, God needed a national foundation to be able to work on
 the same scale.  What do you think God raised up the nation of Israel ?

 GEN 12:2    And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless
             thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
 GEN 15:14   And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge:
             and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

 You mentioned you are going to school... are you going to take any Bible
 courses?  Are you going to depend on me to help you with all the
 answers ? < grin >

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Date       08-23-91 23:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Cults: addition

 MS> Makes it hard to know who to worship then....

 Not really unless you don't know God as a parent.  A parent loves it
 when their children love each other.  Even to the point of worhsip !

 You do know who said this:

 JOH 13:34   A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
             as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
 JOH 13:35   By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye
             have love one to another.
 JOH 15:12   This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have
             loved you.
 JOH 15:17   These things I command you, that ye love one another.

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Date       08-23-91 23:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject       JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

 LW> And what is the purpose of this fire?  [John 17:17]

 PRO 25:21   If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he
             be thirsty, give him water to drink:
 PRO 25:22   For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the
             LORD shall reward thee.

 Fire is used symbolically to mean 'purification' by the word of God.

 JOH 17:17   Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 JER 23:29    [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;


 Word, Truth, Fire...  are all similar... they bring judgement upon
 sinners.

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Date       08-23-91 23:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Moon

 MS> I know what kind of rep Jesus had in His day.  But I also
 MS> understand the authority of Scripture, something Moon likes to

 Yes and the Pharisees and Sadducees knew the 'authority of Scripture'
 but they didn't recognize the messiah did they ?

 JOH 5:39     Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal
              life: and they are they which testify of me.

 I still can't see why you won't talk about issues from the Bible.  This
 conference isn't about Rev Moon but you can't quit talking about him.
 Has he gotten you that shook up...  never mind don't answer.  Just read
 my messages and reply to the places in scripture you disagree. You won't
 find me or the Divine Principle saying that Jesus failed.  It was the
 people who failed.  The person who doesn't love unselfishly is the
 failure... that surely rules Jesus out.

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Date       08-24-91 20:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    EVEN MORE BIBLE

 WC> TB>to the people and they had do what Satan cannot do: Humble
 WC> them- TB>selves and receive God's love through Jesus, God's
 WC> central figure. TB>But they MURDERED him.
 WC>
 WC>     You cannot love someone through someone else. Love is direct
 WC> or it is not anything.

 If your son or daughter was getting married wouldn't you prefer that
 their spouse demonstrated their love for you through your child ?  Take
 more time to think about the heart of the parent and you can answer
 these kinds of questions.

 WC> Matthew 24:23-24 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here
 WC> [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.  For there shall arise
 WC> false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs
 WC> and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall
 WC> deceive the very elect.

 And there shall arise among you the true Christ and he will be
 persecuted by the people he came to save... just as I was hated by the
 people I came to save.  When he comes will he find faith on earth ?

 WC>     I did get the central point of the story. Jacob swindled
 WC> Esau out of his inheritance and stole Esau's spiritual
 WC> inheritance. Esau in- tended to kill Jacob and thus Jacob fled.

 Then why did God give such a scoundrel His blessing and name His chosen
 nation after Jacob ?   Second only to Jesus, Jacob is the greatest man
 that had ever lived.

 WC>     It was a physical impossibility for John the Baptist to
 WC> follow Jesus.

 Who came to make straight the way of the Lord ?  John had the mission of
 preparing the way for the messiah. The only preparation John made
 resulted in getting Jesus killed.  What if you were an ambassador and
 the president sent you to a foreign nation to prepare the way for his
 visit.   Then when the president went there he was greeted with the warm
 reception Jesus got ?   What a miserable failure you would be.  Same
 with John. I can't figure out how you can be so familiar with scripture
 and yet you haven't identified the heroes from the failures ?

 Should I make a list for you ?

 WC>     John the Baptist told the people that he must decrease and
 WC> Jesus must increase (John 3:30).

 How stupid.  How can anyone decrease if they follow Christ ?  John
 didn't follow Jesus at all !

 WC> John's ministry lasted for a
 WC> total of 6 months. He was beheaded by Herod. When Jesus came on
 WC> the scene John already had a reputation as a prophet. This
 WC> reputation did not develop overnight. Jesus came on the scene
 WC> near the end of John's ministry.

 When Jesus came that was the beginning of John's ministry.  He prepared
 his whole life to meet Christ why shouldn't he follow and support once
 he knew who Christ was ?   It is obvious that Satan attacked John and
 murdered him when John failed to follow Jesus.  That's why I keep
 telling you that in order to be saved you MUST:
  1. Find the Messiah
  2. Follow the Messiah

 Trust and obey there's no other way... haven't you ever sang any
 christian hymns ?

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Date       08-24-91 20:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    JACOB

 JW> fell on his TB>             neck, and kissed him: and they wept.
 JW> I find Jacob bowing to Esau.  Where does it say that Esau is
 JW> submitting?

 Esau first went out to meet Jacob with 400 armed men but when Jacob gave
 him everything he had and then bowed to him, Esau's heart was subjugated
 with love and then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, rather than
 fulfilling his original intentions.

 The is is the course the person closer to God ( in Jacob's position )
 has to follow to bring victory for God and gain the voluntary submission
 of those who are father away from God.  Without this kind of unity, the
 foundation is not established to bring fallen man back to God. This is
 the reason it is absolutely essential that fallen man ( in the position
 of Esau ) unite with Christ ( who is in the position of Jacob ).

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Date       08-24-91 20:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    MORE ON THE BIBLE

 WC> It is our individual conduct which determines our relation with God.

 While this true, it is also true that our relationship with God is one
 dimensional.  Before Christ came the highest degree of salvation fallen
 man could attain was the Master-Servant relationship.  But after Christ
 came the relationship with God that was open to fallen man was elevated
 to the adopted child level.   When Christ returns the relationship that
 fallen man can attain with God will again be elevated so that man can
 return to his original position as true son and daughter of God.  So the
 first advent of Christ and the second advent of Christ did open up a new
 possibility that our individual conduct alone could not change.

 You notice Walter, this message puts me on the side you are normally on.
 I'm now telling you that works alone can't save you.



 WC> TB>But Cain and Abel could not unite and Cain killed Abel. It is
 WC> TB>pointless to blame either Cain or Abel because BOTH of them
 WC> are TB>responsible for making unity.
 WC>
 WC>     You have no scriptural basis for this. It is extra-biblical.
 WC> There is no record that the two were on the outs prior to the
 WC> murder. In fact, we find that Cain wanted to talk with Abel.
 WC> Abel was willing and went with him and was murdered for his
 WC> efforts. There is no blame on the part of Abel.

 Why do you assume that Abel did not display arrogance and provoke Cain
 while Can was in this stage of his "countenance fallen" ?   It seems
 obvious to me that Abel may and probably did have the same attitude that
 many Christians have today: "I'm saved... too bad for you."    This
 attitude makes it nearly impossible for God to work.


 WC> TB>central figure.
 WC>
 WC>     There is no scriptural basis for this statement. It is
 WC> extra- biblical.

 Who sold who their birth-right.   Your concept is the extra-biblical
 one.

 WC> TB>Esau went out to meet Jacob with 400 armed men and was
 WC> intending TB>to kill him.
 WC>
 WC>     The Bible does not say that Esau went with his men to kill
 WC> Jacob. You cannot find this in Scripture. It is extra-biblical.

 GEN 32:6     And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to
              thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four
              hundred men with him.

 GEN 32:7    Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed:

 Seems Jacob was aware of Esau's intentions even more that you are.  Your
 teaching is again- once more - the extra-biblical one.  Get with the
 program Walter, you are striking out.

 WC> It would have been impossible for Noah who was asleep to
 WC> know that Ham had seen him asleep except there was evidence of
 WC> some sort.

 Well, there must have been some evidence:

 GEN 9:24    And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son
             had done unto him.

 WC> TB>The people of Sodom and Gomorrah would not obey Abraham and
 WC> were TB>destroyed.
 WC>
 WC>     Why were they supposed to obey Abraham? Scripture does not
 WC> tell us that there was ever any relationship between these
 WC> people and Abraham nor does Scripture tell us that there was
 WC> ever supposed to be such a relationship.

 So are you saying that Abraham was not preaching to the people and
 calling on them to repent ?

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Date       08-24-91 20:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    THE BIBLE

 WC> God TB>follows in order to help man make a condition to come to
 WC> His side.
 WC>     No, Jesus met all the conditions for us. We need only
 WC> believe on Him as the Scripture saith.

 You can't be saying fallen man can come back to God without a condition
 of humble obedience to Christ ?


 WC> Satan to receive love through anyone.

 So who was Satan supposed to receive love through.  Man is to rule the
 angels, therefore the angels are to receive God's love through man.



 WC>     If this were the case then God would not have held Adam and
 WC> Eve responsible for their disobedience. However, God did kick
 WC> them out of the Garden for disobedience.

 Who did God give the commandment to ?   Man is responsible.

 WC> TB>jealousy prevented him from following the proper order and
 WC> receiv- TB>ing God's love through them.
 WC>
 WC>     Lucifer had fallen before Adam and Eve were created. There
 WC> is no scriptural reference anywhere in the Bible telling us that
 WC> he was supposed to receive love through Adam and Eve. This
 WC> concept is extra- biblical.

 No there is no scriptural evidence that Lucifer fell and became Satan
 BEFORE man fell.  Your concept is the extra-biblical one on this point.


 WC> central TB>figure, Abel, and set up a condition for Cain to do
 WC> what Lucifer TB>couldn't do
 WC>
 WC>     This is not taught in Scripture. The concept is
 WC> extra-biblical. You cannot find a single Scripture anywhere that
 WC> says God chose Abel to set up such a condition.

 Once again your idea is the one that is Extra-biblical.  Look here:

 GEN 4:4  And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of
          the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his
          offering:

 How can you read this and say that God did not favor Abel ?  Whose
 offering was rejected ?

 WC>     God loves all equally otherwise He would be a respecter of

 Why then is Jesus the 'Only Begotten Son of God'.  Doesn't this title
 infer a special relationship between Jesus and God that fallen men do
 not share.

 Your teaching is extra-biblical because scripture says our reward shall
 be determined according to the person we unite with.

 MAT 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall
           receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous
           man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous
           man's reward.

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Date       08-24-91 21:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Abraham.5 part 3/5

 WC> the problem with your theology is that John never had the
 WC> opportunity to follow Jesus.

 Who sent John to accuse the woman for adultry ?  John kept on doing his
 own thing.  Big, Big mistake.  He got snake bit !

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Date       08-24-91 21:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Abraham.5 part 3/5

 WC>     There seems to have been a typo here. Matthew 11 has only 30
 WC> verses in it. Chapter 10 has 42 and chapter 12 has 50 yet 12:44
 WC> is concerns a different subject. That's why I suspect a typo.

 Thanks for not jumping on me for this mistake.  I suppose I better write
 a few macros to prevent this kind of error ?

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Date       08-24-91 21:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Abraham.5 part 4/5

 WC> TB>You should at least begin to understand the Cain - Abel
 WC> relation- TB>ship and how important it is to one's salvation.
 WC>
 WC>     Terry, the Cain-Able relationship is not even remotely
 WC> related to one's salvation.

 Well, Walter You made one Gigantic mistake when you said that God
 doesn't want grandchildren and that He will never have any.  Now you
 have made another mistake of that caliber.  Unless you comprehend that
 in order to follow God you must unite with the person He chooses and
 receive God's love through that person, you will never be saved.

 I'll have to think about your 2 big ERRORS and see if I can determine
 which one is more serious.

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Date       08-24-91 21:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Abraham.5 part 4/5

 WC> The theories you advocate are not contained in the
 WC> Bible. They are extra-biblical. I have based my salvation
 WC> directly on what the Scripture says. I have had the same
 WC> experience that the 120 did on the Day of Pentecost and in other
 WC> places in Acts. I have seen the gifts of the Spirit in operation.

 I understand.

 WC> All the evidence that I have witnessed to date is in
 WC> harmony with what the Scripture says. Yet you want me to abandon
 WC> all this for something with no power to overcome sin. Why should
 WC> I do that in the face of the massive evidence I have that I am
 WC> correct?

 No, I'm not suggesting abandonment, only enhancement.   When God opens
 up a great opportunity for mankind, many people are called from all the
 various forms of faith and worship and asked to unite to make a better
 world.  I was formally a Southern Baptist, now I am representing my
 faith in this movement initiated by God.  We sure could use a good man
 like you to represent the Pentecostal's.   You are especially sensitive
 to the activities of the spiritual world.  They are going to intensify
 and it will be easier to understand and accept the things I have been
 telling you.  Just remember that God's goal is to establish HIS Ideal
 family on earth through the Messiah and his physical bride, and the
 cruciality of uniting with the central figure God has chosen for this
 time in history.

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Date       08-24-91 21:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Abraham.5 part 4/5

 WC> Jacob was not being unselfish when he sent all that livestock to
 WC> Esau. Jacob was attempting to buy him off. He was in effect
 WC> paying Esau to let him live.

 Why did Jacob even bother to return ?  With all the wealth he had
 accumulated, he could have gone anywhere he wanted and have avoided the
 whole situation.

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Date       08-24-91 21:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Abraham.5 part 5/5

 WC> TB>AMEN! Why don't you join the Church that is most severely
 WC> perse- TB>cuted at this time in history?
 WC>
 WC>     I have. Come witness sometimes and see Holy Ghost power in
 WC> ac- tion.

 Ok, and will you come and sell flowers on the corner with me and witness
 the suffering heart of God ?

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Date       08-24-91 21:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject      Brothers and Childrldre

 EM> Is Moon God?  If not, is he the Messiah?  If not, what is he?

 JOH 9:16  Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles?
           And there was a division among them.

 JOH 9:25   He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner [or no], I know
            not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

 EM> As always, it is requested that you provide Scriptural evidence
 EM> to support your views.  (It's also a good idea for
 EM> self-preservation--if you don't, you'll have people jumping all
 EM> over you.)

 Well, after a year and a half in this conference, and getting the boot
 from another conference after only 2 wks, I'm so used to being jumped on
 I wouldn't know what to do if someone agreed with me.

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Date       08-24-91 21:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject     Cults: Addition

 EM> Read Hebrews 1:10.  And in case your Bible isn't handy, I'll be
 EM> nice and quote it for you right here.
 EM> [God speaking to the Son] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast
 EM> laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works
 EM> of thine hands:

 When I read this it appears much like a old man who is truning over all
 he has worked for all of his life to his son and saying I did this all
 FOR you.

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Date       08-24-91 21:52:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Thomas Bentley
Subject     Jehovah (the name)

 TB> The truth is nobody knows for sure how the name of God was
 TB> originally pronounced.  Why not? Well, the first language used
 TB> in writing the...

 Well, it doesn't really matter anyway because Jesus gave God another
 name:

 LUK 11:2  Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 See, God's name is 'Hallowed'.    ha ha ha

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Date       08-24-91 21:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.7

 WC>     Where in the Bible does it say that the 40 day fast was a
 WC> separa- tion from Satan?

 So Moses was just on a diet.  How much weight do you think he lost ?

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Date       08-24-91 21:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.7

 WC>     Nope. Only the Messiah can restore fallen man. Those who
 WC> believe on Him ARE redeemed. There is not such thing as "the
 WC> Foundation of Substance" in Scripture. It is an extra-biblical
 WC> teaching.

 Is 'Oneness' in the scripture ?     Nope, just checked and came up
 empty.

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Date       08-24-91 21:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.7

 WC>     I though that you did not accept prophecy that Jesus would
 WC> die.

 Not at all.  I know ther is plenty of phophecy about the possibility of
 Jesus being rejected and MURDERED.  But prophecy is always dual in
 nature.  If you obey God and fulfill your responsibility the good part
 happens, but if you lose faith like John the Baptist:

 LUK 7:20    When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist
 hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we
 for another?

 Or the Jewish people:

 JOH 1:11    He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 ...the bad part happens.

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Date       08-24-91 22:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject     RESTORE.1

 EM> I dunno about some of the things you believe in, but this much I
 EM> think is right on track.

 Let me get up !  I just fell out of my chair.  This is one message I'm
 going to save for those days I get 20 +  messages with everyone telling
 me I'm wrong.   Thanks for your bravery.  Agreeing with me is even worse
 than failing to supply scriptural support for your ideas.< grin >

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Date       08-24-91 22:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 1/3

 WC>     No. But then it is rather difficult how one can interpret
 WC> the verse in any other way considering the physical phenomena
 WC> which took place when He ascended.

 2KI 2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that,
           behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of
           fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a
           whirlwind into heaven.

 Looks like another candidate for messiahship ?

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Date       08-24-91 22:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 1/3

 WC>
 WC>     The Old Testament also tells us what will happen when He
 WC> sets foot on the earth at the same place where He ascended.

 You better take a close, very close, reading of the parable of the
 vineyard. And call me in the morning !

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Date       08-24-91 22:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 1/3

 WC> TB>Why can't you accept the possibility that the clouds in this
 WC> TB>scripture could be symbolic of purified people (believers)?
 WC>
 WC>     I do not accept the possibility because the clouds at His
 WC> ascen- sion were real physical clouds made of drops of H2O

 JOH 3:13    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down
             from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

 Jesus claimed he came from heaven, but he was born of woman.  Does this
 help you understand that he is using heaven symbolically to mean the
 motivation for his birth holy and Godly ?

 Where is the opposite of Heaven ?  Earth ?

 REV 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
           the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was
           cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with
           him.


 See Satan was cast to th earth which is symbolic for the ungodly world.

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Date       08-24-91 22:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 1/3

 WC> TB>You do know that when the Bible says our Father who art in
 WC> heaven, TB>it does not mean that God lives in the literal sky.
 WC>
 WC>     But of course. That is obvious from Paul's comment about the
 WC> third heaven. The first heaven for the ancients was the
 WC> atmosphere where the birds fly and the clouds are. The second
 WC> heaven is the residence of the sun, moon and stars. The third
 WC> heaven is where the throne of God is to be found.

 God did not create man so that He could continue dwelling in the sky.

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Date       08-24-91 23:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 2/3

 WC>     No marriage in heaven, Terry. The marriage supper of the
 WC> Lamb is symbolic of the union of God and His church.

 That's right before Christ retruns and marries there will be no
 marriages in heaven. ...Just like before Jesus came there was no
 Paridice.

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Date       08-24-91 23:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 2/3

 WC>     We are waiting because Daniel's 70th Week has not begun. The
 WC> marriage supper will take place then.

 Walter, you dummy <grin>,  it happened in 1960.  Recheck you arithmetic.

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Date       08-24-91 23:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 2/3

 WC>     No. God is omniscient. He know exactly what would happen
 WC> before it happened. Prophecy having a dual nature implies that

 ..man has a portion of responsibility in the fulfillment of God's will.


 NUM 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made
           them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the
           generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was
           consumed.

 If God knew so exactly that the Israelites were going to do evil, why
 was He so angry that He made them wander in the wilderness forty years ?

 This is a typical example of faith and reason having no reconciliation.

 God could ONLY have been disappointed because they did no do as HE had
 hoped and expected.

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Date       08-24-91 23:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC> TB>Every prophecy is dual in nature.
 WC>
 WC>     Not so. God told Abraham He would make Abraham's descendants
 WC> and numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand of the sea.
 WC> He has done exactly that. The promise was independent of man's
 WC> actions.

 GEN 4:7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou
          doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be]
          his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 Here is a dual prophecy even you can't deny.

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Date       08-24-91 23:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC>     God does not favor one individual over another. That would
 WC> make Him a respecter of persons. He is not. The difference is
 WC> the individu- als response to God not God's response to the
 WC> individual.


 ROM 9:13   As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 I thought you said Jacob was the bad guy ?

 GEN 4:4  And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of
          the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his
          offering:
 GEN 4:5  But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain
          was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

 Sorry, your teaching is Extra-biblical.

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Date       08-24-91 23:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC> TB>Wasn't Abel's offering accepted?
 WC>
 WC>     Of course it was accepted. Able offered a blood sacrifice.
 WC> Cain refused to offer a blood sacrifice and insisted upon
 WC> offering the fruit of the fields (crops). That was rebellion and
 WC> thus sin.

 Walter, you certainly are doing a lot of Extra-biblical tap dancing
 tonight !   Where did you find your reason for God rejecting Cain's
 offering.  You got some 'Other Book' hidden away you are reading from?

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Date       08-24-91 23:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC>     But Esau did not love God. The response of the individual to
 WC> God makes the difference.

 More Extra-biblical tap dancing.  What is the name of this other book
 you are reading from ?  Come on I caught you.

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Date       08-24-91 23:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC> TB>God always sacrifices the person in the Abel position
 WC> (closest to TB>Him) for those father away (in the Cain
 WC> position).
 WC>     You are grasping at straws here. Abel was not sacrificed for
 WC> Cain.

 No, I'm not grasping at straws but you are correct here.  Abel did not
 take sacrificial attitude and offer to help Cain get his offering
 accepted.   The person who is favored by God, in other words God's
 central figures like Noah, Moses, Abraham and Jacob, are asked to
 sacrifice, fast, build boats, fight with angels, and go to prison, etc
 for the sake of the people God is trying to lead/reach through them.

 You will understand this if God calls you to become a missionary for
 your faith, and leave your luxurious palace in Slidell for some flea
 bitten, mosquito infested jungle of who knows where.

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Date       08-24-91 23:27:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC>     Or counter extra-biblical doctrines on the Open Bible Echo.
 WC> <:-)

 Yes <grin>,   I see you are getting a lot of persecution for setting me
 straight.  I think more people agree with me, but I would bet you don't
 share that belief either < ha ha >.

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Date       08-24-91 23:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     Restore.3 part 3/3

 WC>     There is not way to construe Zacharias as the "Highest." In
 WC> con- junction with the passage from Matthew it is obvious that
 WC> Zacharias was not the father of Jesus. Mary had already
 WC> conceived when she went to visit Elizabeth.

 What's the problem ?  How many wives did Jacob have ?  How many women
 did Abraham have children by ?   What's so strange about Zac haveing
 children by two women ?

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Date       08-24-91 23:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Spirits Of The Dead

 JW> I still don't see it there.  I don't see any reason to call the
 JW> belief that "sex was the problem" anything more than speculation
 JW> unsupported by scripture.

 I'm not saying that sex per say was the problem.   The problem was
 misdirected love.  Rather than waiting on God's blessing of marriage,
 Adam and Eve began their family life while they were still immature and
 unqualified for the responsibilities of parenthood.  The love they
 passed on to their children was self-centered rather that the quality of
 sacrificial public-centered love that God wanted them to pass on to His
 grand children.

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Date       08-24-91 23:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carey Sullins
Subject    the law

 CS> I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their
 CS> hearts and i will be to them a god and they shall be to me a
 CS> people ... Just saying everyone knows in one way or another what
 CS> is right if they will just stop fighting long enough and relax a
 CS> moment

 Not a bad idea, but then let's not get too complacent.

 REV 3:16    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,
             I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Date       08-25-91 10:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject      BETTER LATE THAN NE NEV

 LW> I was wondering, do you believe that Jesus was the second Adam?
 LW> Could you give me some references from your lit. that tells
 LW> about the second and third Adam?

 This refers to Jesus coming as Adam:

 1CO 15:45   And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living
             soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

 See the connection between Adam and Christ:

 1CO 15:22   For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
             alive.


 There is a pattern throughout the Bible of God choosing another person
 to continue a mission when the first person He chose could not finish
 the project.   Examples:

 Solomon finally got the temple built after Saul and David were given the
 mission.

 Matthias took Judas' position as one of the 12 apostles.

 Joshua lead the people into Canaan when Moses lost faith and struck the
 rock of Horeb the second time.



 Since Adam was to told to be fruitful and multiply, we can only assume
 that God was instructing him to build a God centered family.  Certainly
 God didn't intend for Adam and Eve to procreate children of sin.

 So since Adam failed, God sent his second son Jesus to fulfill the three
 blessings, and bring sinless children into the world.  But the people
 did not support Jesus and murdered him before he could establish the
 second blessing and build the God centered family God had originally
 instructed Adam to build.   Now we are waiting on the second coming of
 Christ and the Marriage supper of the Lamb so the second blessing can be
 fulfilled.  At the second coming of Christ, we will see the first coming
 of Miss. Christ.   When Mister Christ and Miss. Christ marry, there will
 be sinless children.   How do you think Satan likes the idea of lots of
 sinless children coming into his kingdom ?  Big time headaches for the
 Snake !   You can see why Satan was so anxious to enter Judas and
 promote the betrayal of Jesus before Jesus married.

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Date       08-25-91 10:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Moon

 EM> "The cross is the symbol of the defeat of Christianity."  He
 EM> goes on to explain that Jesus failed, but that he's the next
 EM> Messiah and will succeed. Who do you think Moon is, and why?

 First, I really don't see how my opinions and personal experience
 matter. This is an area where each individual has to decide for them
 self.  I will tell you that I do know for SURE that Rev. Moon is a man
 of God.

 I don't like to say that Jesus failed.  It is much like saying that Abel
 failed because Cain killed him.   Let me tell you who failed:   It was
 John the Baptist.  John's mission was to make straight the way of the
 Lord, but he in reality became a hindrance to Jesus.  I know he
 originally testified that Jesus was the Christ, but then he lost faith
 and even made Jesus look like a liar when he denied he was Elijah after
 Jesus said that he was.

 JOH 9:16  ...Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such
              miracles? And there was a division among them.

 JOH 9:25   He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner [or no], I know
            not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

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Date       08-26-91 07:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       MOSES.2

 WC>     Any one can certainly communicate directly one on one with
 WC> God.

 JOH 14:6    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
             no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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Date       08-26-91 07:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject       MOSES.3

 WC>     I asked previously what I must do to be saved. The Bible
 WC> tells us in a single verse what we must do to be saved. No
 WC> theology courses are necessary, just simply do what the Apostle
 WC> said.

 JOH 14:6    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
             no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


 WC> TB>Yet you think you can just up and leave Satan's dominion and
 WC> TB>stroll over to live with God.
 WC>
 WC>     I John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that
 WC> are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the
 WC> Father is not in him.
 WC>
 WC> I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome
 WC> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in
 WC> the world.
 WC> TB>It is not that simple, you have to FIRST confront and defeat
 WC> Satan TB>on a personal level.
 WC>
 WC>     An absolute impossibility. It is only through Christ that
 WC> one can overcome sin and Satan. (I John 4:4)


 REV 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
          and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I
          will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

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Date       08-26-91 08:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moses.9 part 1/2

 WC>     Christ is symbolized as a rock as in huge gigantic rock. The
 WC> Greek words for such a rock is not the same as that for a stone.
 WC> Christ is symbolized in the Old Testament as a rock no a stone.
 WC> He is symbolized in the New Testament as the Lamb of God slain
 WC> from the foundation of the world.

 Let me show you something:

 REV 2:17    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto
 the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden
 manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name
 written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

 First this verse supports my position that Man MUST overcome Satan on a
 personal level.  Even though man cannot do it alone, it is still man's
 responsibility.   In other words if you had to meet me somewhere and you
 needed a car or airplane to get there, it would still be YOUR
 responsibility to find the means to get there.  Likewise it is your
 responsibility to overcome Satan even if ( and you will HAVE to ) use
 the conditions and power Christ made available.

 Second Rev is in the New Testament and it clearly refers to Christ as a
 'White Stone'.

 Third, this verse says that Christ will come with a 'new name'  ...I am
 not the only one who now knows what that 'new name' will be.   I think
 you know too, even if you don't believe Christ could come again like he
 did the first time - born of woman.

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Date       08-26-91 08:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject     Why You Can Trust Th The

 CR> >  ROM 3:10    As it is written, There is none righteous, no,
 CR> > not one:
 CR> >  Was Noah Righteous ?
 CR>
 CR> Yes, he was.
 CR>
 CR> Terry, this gives us a perfect example of what one can believe
 CR> when a verse is taken out of context.

 No it is a perfect example of what everyone does with a scripture that
 doesn't fit their theology.  THEY IGNORE IT !

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Date       08-26-91 21:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Cults: Addition

 KK>  Terry, none of the verses you quoted prove anything from the
 KK> Bible, It still doesn't dent Christ's deity.

 Jesus was God in the sense that he was perfect and therefore could fully
 manifest God's love.   I think all you really want to tell us is that
 you love daddy most.  You seem to indicate that my belief about the
 relationship between Jesus and God makes me love him less than you do.

 Are my perceptions correct ?

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Date       08-26-91 21:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Vinci
Subject     Jahovah'S Witnessesses

 BV> Am I mistaken or did you call christianity a cult ?...

 Yes, because christianity is a system of religious worship.  The common
 usage of the term is more related to the term 'heretic'.  Or better yet,
 minority because once heresy becomes accepted by the majority it becomes
 ORTHODOXY.

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Date       08-26-91 21:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Jehovah'S Name Vs. R.

 KK>   1. ADMIT you are a sinner,  and that only the Lord Jesus can
 KK> save you      (Romans 3:23)
 KK>   2. REPENT: be willing to turn away from sin and submit to God.
 KK>      (Luke 13:5)
 KK>   3. BELIEVE that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross and
 KK> shed his      blood to pay the price for your sins, and that he
 KK> rose from the      dead. (Romans 10:9)
 KK>   4. ASK God to save you. (Romans 10:13)
 KK>   5. ASK Jesus Christ to be the Lord (take control) of your
 KK> life.      (Romans 12:1,2)
 KK>
 KK> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 KK> -=-=-= It's that simple, is it the message Jesus taught, any
 KK> other road is the wrong path. Any denomination that doesn't
 KK> preach this message is a cult and is of the God of this world.
 KK> If you do the above you will become saved.

 Well I have to disagree because you left off #6. Follow and Obey

 MAT 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
           the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
           which is in heaven.

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Date       08-26-91 21:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Boerma
Subject           Messiah

 CB>    You assume here that God IS first and formost a Parent.

 Exactly.  Once you understand that this is the most basic and
 fundamental principle in my theology, you can understand ALL of my
 messages, even if you never agree with one of them.

 CB> I disagree.

 Ok,  We have something to talk about.

 CB> There was a time, was there not when we didn't exist and God did.
 CB> He wasn't a parent then was he?

 Correct.  But if you have ever studied motivation, you would remember
 that all action comes from emotional dissatisfaction.  God was lonely
 and bored. He *NEEDED* someone He could relate to that was in His own
 image, with equal ability to give and receive love.

 CB> God is many things, including a Parent. But I think
 CB> him first and foremost the Supreme Being,

 Yes but if you really dig into the essence of various religions of the
 world, you will find that the one factor that sets the religion founded
 by Jesus apart from the rest is that Jesus' religion is based on the
 parent child relationship.   Jesus called God his Father, but other
 religions call God their master etc.   Which relationship do you think
 is closer:  1. Master - servant,  or 2. Parent - child  ?  What is the
 purpose of religion ?   Religion was initiated to bring fallen man back
 into a relationship with God.  If there had been no fall there would
 have been no need for religion.

 CB> I wish also to re-make a point that you've
 CB> glossed over: 'wanting' and 'needing' are two different things.
 CB> I want my car and my radio and other luxuries. I want to be able
 CB> to view art and listen to music. None of these things, however,
 CB> are needed things. I would survive fine without them.

 True, but what is Gods goal ?  Survival or Happiness ?

 CB> Even in a Parent-Child
 CB> situation, and Parent wants his child (in most cases) and wants
 CB> good for his/her child.

 Absolutely, so then God being the first parent and the greatest parent
 wants the ultimate good for His children.

 CB> But a Parent does not need a Child in order to exist,
 CB> True he or she wouldn't
 CB> be a Parent by definition, but that person would still go on.
 CB> In fact if a parent were to lose a child, that person could go on
 CB> to have more and become a parent again.

 Let's stop a minute and think about this scripture:

 LUK 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of
          them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and
          go after that which is lost, until he find it?
 LUK 15:5 And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders,
          rejoicing.
 LUK 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends
          and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have
          found my sheep which was lost.
 LUK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one
          sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just
          persons,
 ...
 LUK 15:10   Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of
             the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.


 CB> Now I don't think any parent would willingly go throught that
 CB> pain, but he or she might have to. God would not willingly cause
 CB> harm to his children, but if we were to have World War Three and
 CB> everyone on the face of the earth were killed,
 CB> God could go on to creat new children, on a different planet.

 Forgive me if I sound too harsh, but can any Parent say "These are
 really bad kids, let's just kill them and make some more."  ?

 God isn't going to allow Satan to destroy all His children.  Satan would
 love to destroy everyone and then he would be in a position to rule over
 all the lost souls that in hell forever.

 CB> You see, God WANTS us, but doesn't NEED us. Do you see what I'm
 CB> saying? God is not ONLY a Parent. He can livwithout us.

 This is the clearest example of the difference between christianity
 today, and the vision of the ideal world as taught by Rev. Moon.

 Rev. Moon personally experienced the suffering heart of God and made his
 life's long goal to do everything he could to bring happiness to God.

 If one person believes that God doesn't need anything, and another
 believes that God created man for the purpose of experiencing happiness
 with His children, which person do you think will find God ?

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Date       08-27-91 10:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject     Faith and Works

 PB>     Agreed.  You can not tell if a person has true faith without
 PB> looking at his works, but God can:

 MAT 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
           good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 It's kinda hard to follow Christ and not Obey him.

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Date       08-27-91 12:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject      BETTER LATE THAN NE NE

 JT> In looking at all the Canons of the Councils you named, and
 JT> additionally those of the 7th Council, I find nothing which
 JT> shows the least tendency to move toward the Nestorian heresy, in
 JT> even so slight a way that the direction  would take centuries
 JT> to reveal.

 You better check the concil of Constantiople ( 680-81 ) again.
 Nestorious' ideas were accepted, with some modification, without any
 apology to Nestorious.   The Council decreed that in Christ "there are
 two natural wills and modes of operation without divison, change,
 separation or confusion... His human will follows, without any
 resistance or reluctance but in subjection, his divine and omnipotent
 will."

 JT> I think you're way off the wall on this one, Terry.  <grin>  May
 JT> I offer you a ladder?

 Well since you are coming from an Eastern Orthodox position, and the
 Council at Chalcedon offended Eastern churchmen who cherished Cyril's
 one-nature portrayal of the incarnate Christ, why should I expect you to
 agree ?  < grin >

 Everyone seems to think that Christ is something strange and unusual,
 but acutally if there had been no fall, everyone would have the same
 relationship with God that Christ, being perfect, had.  Actually Christ
 is normal, everyone else is strange and abnormal.

 Let's consider what perfection really is:

 When we examine the fall of man, we can see that man adopted the wrong
 set of priorities.   In order for man to perfect himself, he had to obey
 the commandment.  But rather that following the public priority, man
 chose the individual priority.   Perfection therefore requires man to
 get his priorities in order.

 Man's individual purpose is to preserve and maintain his existence.  On
 the other hand, he as a whole-oriented purpose of life ...to make a
 certain contribution to his family, society, and nation as a member of
 these bodies.

 Not only human beings, but everything from the universe to the smallest
 sub-atomic particle has dual purposes.  The individual purpose and the
 purpose for the whole are not independent, but rather are related and
 interdependent.

 The purpose for the whole is also secondarily a purpose for the
 betterment of the individual.  The individual purpose is not separate
 from the purpose for the whole, and the purpose for the whole cannot
 continue to exist without guaranteeing the individual purpose.  The
 Creation is an organic body intertwined with dual purposes.

 Of all the purposes directed beyond the self, the supreme purpose for
 all things is to serve man's needs, in other words, to give joy to man,
 and the supreme purpose for man is to offer joy to God. Therefore man
 and all things have the purpose to serve God and give joy to him.

 Perfection then means to get our priorities in proper order.

 If a person places their family on a higher level of priority than their
 individual needs, the family will prosper AND the individual will
 prosper, but if the individual is only interested in supporting their
 own needs then the family declines and the individual will decline with
 it.  The same principle applies on a national and world wide level.

 Once this principle is understood, it is clear how rediculous it was for
 John the Baptist to say "He must increase and I must decrease."   John
 was not thinking about the whole purpose.   Had he really supported
 Jesus to realize the Kingdom of Heaven, they both had proclaimed was at
 hand, he would have increased far beyond his meger position of 'a voice
 crying in the wilderness.'

 How would you like to be Vice-Messiah ?

 Thanks for stimulating me to think about these things again.

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Date       08-27-91 13:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject      BETTER LATE THAN NE NE

 JT> As to your explanation of the purposes of Christ, as given
 JT> above, I would only say that they must stand and fall on the
 JT> actions of Jesus Christ following
 JT> His Resurrection; and His only recorded word, specifically to a
 JT> woman who was eminently
 JT> an eligible candidate, was "Touch me not: for I am not yet
 JT> ascended to my Father".


 < chuckle >  Well at least you are going to take some of the heat off me
 for my position against the misuse of sexual love.

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Date       08-27-91 13:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject      BETTER LATE THAN NE NE

 JT> BTW>  What's the "Rime Bible Echo"?  Neither this nor "Rime"
 JT> itself are things
 JT> I'm familiar with.  From what you say, I'm not missing much.
 JT> The echo which
 JT> we're trying to put together, here in Colorado Springs, will
 JT> hopefully go on the FidoNet
 JT> backbone, if we can get up enough interest in it to justify
 JT> that.  If not, we'll consider alternatives; but this "Rime"
 JT> thing doesn't sound like an alternative we should explore.

 Well, it is the second attempt to get a Bible conference going on RIME.
 The first one failed miserable and the founder attempted to bring a law
 suite against the network.   He ( Steve Winters ) was her for about a
 month and really made waves in his attacks against Catholics and
 tradition of calling ALL non Pentecostals SATAN.   There is a Religion
 conference on rime, but it seldom had much to do with the Bible when I
 picked it up.  It was mostly about politics and religion  ...and
 sometimes evolutionism vs creationism.

 JT> For one thing, if they'll kick you off for expressing your
 JT> views, they would
 JT> likely do the same to us; for another, we'd probably lose the
 JT> chance of your
 JT> participation, which would be especially a shame if otherwise
 JT> unnecessary.

 Well, I wasn't actually kicked out, I was put on probation and not
 allowed to enter messages for 5 days.  And clearly told not to post
 anything about my beliefs again.   How can someone participate under
 those conditions ?   How can I write any message without my viewpoint
 being expressed ?

 Anyway, I don't think such a conference that doesn't allow diversity in
 beliefs will ever amount to anything.  They will eventually get bored
 with telling each other 'We're saved.'    At least it should become
 evident that Othodoxy NEEDS Heresy in order to exist itself < grin >.

 You may not agree, but I have found that religion progresses like a man
 walks.  It takes a step with the foot of heresy then the foot of
 orthodoxy drags forward to catch up.  Just compare the Old Testament
 with the New Testament to see how God has been working to elevate man's
 understanding and close the gap in their relationship.

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Date       08-27-91 13:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject      BETTER LATE THAN NE NEV

 JT> However, even if your concept of free will demands that the
 JT> future be utterly
 JT> unknowable, even to God, we can still see that God was betting
 JT> on a "sure thing" here.

 I have to agree that after the ordeal that God went through with Moses
 and the people in the wilderness, God did learn that it was highly
 probable that His son would be rejected by faithless people.   I do
 believe God could remember way back to Moses...  that was only about
 1,600 years. < grin >

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Date       08-27-91 13:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Fidonet Open Bible House

 JW> Please sir, when posting the rules, keep it under 100 lines or
 JW> break it up because I still haven't seen the entire listing.
 JW> Somewhere it is getting truncated to 100 lines.  The last lines
 JW> I have seen are:

 I don't know if it will help, but I have written a utility to chop up
 message that are too long for  the  100 line limit.   If you want to try
 it out, let me know and I will make it available to you.   The name is
 chop_up and it is being used here on my bbs and on about 10 Spitfire
 bbs's that are on the Fidonet network.   Chop_up is still being
 'tweeked' but at this point it only fails on about 1 out of ever 1,000
 messages.  That sure helps get the great programming code posted without
 losing essential parts.

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Date       08-27-91 13:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Holy Spirit

 JW> As for Jesus being in submission to the Father, it is as if I
 JW> was hired by my wife.  She would be my boss/superior and I would
 JW> be her worker/servant.  This does not change the fact that the
 JW> husband is the head of the wife _in the family_.  Neither does
 JW> it make my wife a better person than me.

 It doesn't make the Husband the Wife though.   I thought you were saying
 that Jesus was God.   I will agree that Jesus was employed by God.

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Date       08-27-91 13:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Jacob

 JW> But Esau still has not _submitted_ to Jacob.  Esau has accepted
 JW> him.  I do not see/read that Esau acknowledged any subordinate
 JW> role.

 Ok, but whatever degred of unity you do find between Jacob and Esau, you
 do not find between Cain and Abel, or Jesus and John the Baptist.   Had
 John united with Jesus and started following and obeying, it would have
 been very hard for the Jewish people to have crucified him.

 What's going to happen when Christ returns ?  Will he find faith ?

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Date       08-27-91 13:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Spirits Of The Dead

 JW> They _were_ husband and wife (Genesis 2:25).  Therefore did they
 JW> not have God's blessing of marriage?  Who else could have
 JW> married them?

 Who is going to bless Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb ?

 JW> They were entitled to have sexual intercourse
 JW> (Genesis 2:24).  The belief that they were immature and
 JW> unqualified for the responsibilities of parenthood could rest on
 JW> the fact that they did not know Good from Evil.

 I simply will never be convinced that God would approve of Adam and Eve
 having sexual intercourse before they were mature enough to be
 responsible parents for HIS grandchildren.   It is obvious that they
 were still immature and not yet perfected.   If they had been perfected
 they would not have fallen.

 JW> But then you would need to take the Mormon position that The Fall
 JW> was necessary.

 NO the fall was not necessary and it even grieved God.  Grief indicates
 disappointment.  Disappointment is a result of plans/ideals not being
 realized.

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Date       08-27-91 23:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Cults: addition

 MS> But you don't want to know God as a parent - you want Him as a
 MS> grandparent!

 Well I'm happy to see you have been reading my messages.  You got me on
 this one !  Now that you understand this, I can take your understanding
 a step farther.   You see all parents are supposed to be God incarnated
 and the visible form of God to their children.  So God is in the grand
 parent position to me while my true parents are living on earth, then
 when they pass away, I, with my wife, will be the visible form of God to
 my children.  Kinda puts a little more emphasis on good works doesn't
 it ?  Once you realize you are the messiah to your wife and children,
 you know that if you go to hell you won't be alone.

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Date       08-27-91 23:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Moon                  2/2

 MS> I could quote the parallel passages in Mark and Luke, but that
 MS> would just belabor the point that Jesus went to the cross on His
 MS> own will and the will of His Father.

 So can you explain why Jesus ( and John the Baptist ) began his ministry
 saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand ?   Why did Jesus think the
 Kingdom was coming so soon ?  He didn't say people had to die to go
 there.  He didn't say 2,000 years from now.   Jesus didn't fail, the
 people simply chose to disbelieve him and they missed the boat !

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Date       08-27-91 23:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Albert Burson
Subject    Salvation

 AB> I have been a non-believer for most of my life, and only
 AB> now am I beginning to understanding that God really does
 AB> exist.  So I might be guilty of presumptuousness, but I
 AB> wonder if Jesus were to return today, might he not find
 AB> a new group of Pharisees, who like their legalistic
 AB> brethern, insist upon obedience to the authority of the
 AB> law or doctrine, and neglect the message that Jesus
 AB> tried to give to us.

 I can assure you that you are correct.

 LUK 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless
           when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

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Date       08-28-91 08:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject       BETTER LATE THAN NN NE

 LW> Notice that your analogy does NOT compare here.  You surmise
 LW> that another must continue what Jesus did not complete, yet the
 LW> very verse that you quote tells you that Jesus was the LAST
 LW> Adam. This very verse denies the need for a third Adam, the
 LW> supposed position of Rev. Moon.  The word *LAST* does not
 LW> suggest a continuance, don't you agree?

 I see your point, but do you know that there will be a second coming ?
 Why should Christ come back if everything was taken care of the first
 time ?  Why did Jesus begin his misistry saying the Kingdom of Heaven
 was at hand ?   It is obvious something unexpected happened.

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Date       08-28-91 08:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject       BETTER LATE THAN NN NE

 LW> Jesus couldn't find a wife in 33 years?  You must be joking.

 He couldn't find 12 solid believers  OR even 1 that would go to the
 cross with him.   Do you think is was easy to find a woman that would
 take the responsibility to be the TRUE MOTHER of mankind ?

 You have to realize the importance of True Mother,  not only must she
 fulfill the role of restored Eve and totally unite with Christ, but also
 she is the first to person to separate from the fallen world to be fully
 restored to God's side so that her children are born sinless.

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Date       08-28-91 09:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.1 part 1/2

 WC> Jesus was God incarnate in human flesh. Every devil that Jesus
 WC> came across was terrified of Him. He had total control over
 WC> them. They instantly obeyed His commands. That included Satan.

 How frightened was Satan when he entered Judas and betrayed Christ ?

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Date       08-28-91 09:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.1 part 1/2

 WC>     Apparently the only people we have a record of him teaching
 WC> was Elisha who assumed his mantle when Elijah was caught up into
 WC> heaven without having died first. The term used for this is
 WC> raptured. The church will be caught up (raptured) to met with
 WC> Jesus in the air before Daniel's 70th Week begins.

 Is this the Pentecostal church ?


 What are you going to do up there Walter ?   What if you get hungry or
 need to go to the toilet ?   Won't your clothes eventually wear out ?
 Do you just plan on floating and floating or will you be going to some
 specific destination ?   How about air ?    After you rise a couple
 miles it will start becoming very difficult to breathe.

 Walter, your theology doesn't really address practical matters.  It
 doesn't really look ahead and think things through.  AND it totally
 overlooks important scripture like this:   (EXTRA-BIBLICAL)

 PSA 37:11  But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight
            themselves in the abundance of peace.

 MAT 5:5    Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


 So it appears that the saved, who are supposed to be the meek, are going
 to be left behind at the rapture.  Well  I can only guess that your
 doctrine has some kind of fix for this 'goof up' like the theory that
 you will fly away for a while then come back when God has vaporized the
 rest of us.

 Actually if you were going to preach the rapture as a physical
 departure from the earth, you would come closer to convincing me that
 the evidoers ( like myself, I suppose ) would be the ones taken away.

 PSA 37:9    For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the
             LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

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Date       08-28-91 09:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.1 part 1/2

 WC>     Elisha was not a reincarnated Elijah. Neither was John the
 WC> Bap- tist a reincarnated Elijah. The Scripture do not teach
 WC> reincarnation.

 Don't believe in reincarnation.

 God works to accomplish the total Dispensation for Restoration by
 calling many individuals and giving each the portion of work that is
 suitable for him.  As the Dispensation progresses and a new central
 person is chosen for a mission, God progressively broadens the scale of
 the dispensation, expanding it from the individual level to the levels
 of the family, the nation, and the world.  A person who dies without
 completing his mission must return and cooperate with a person on earth
 who has the same type of mission and the same spiritual disposition.
 From this mission-oriented viewpoint, the physical self of the person on
 earth becomes the physical self for the returning spirit person as well.
 In this sense, the person on earth becomes the "second coming" of the
 returning spirit person.  When viewed with spiritual eyes, the person on
 earth could seem to be the reincarnation of the spirit person who is
 cooperating with him.

 For this reason in the Last Days many people will appear claiming to be
 Elijah, Buddha, Confucius, or the Olive Tree.  It would seem that the
 theory of trans-migration, or reincarnation, is the result of
 interpreting what is happening based on appearances, without knowing the
 principles of returning resurrection.

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Date       08-28-91 09:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.1 part 2/2

 WC>     Where in the Bible do we find a reference to the "Foundation
 WC> of Faith?" or for the "Foundation of Substance?"

 I have explained these terms several times.  You must not be getting my
 messages ?   I'll go over it one more time:


 Foundation of faith :  the vertical relationship/connection to/with God,
 The first of the TWO commandment Jesus said was the greatest; Love God.

 Foundation of substance : the horozontal relationship/connection to your
 brothers and sisters,   The second of the TWO commandments Jesus said
 was the greatest:  Love one another.

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Date       08-28-91 09:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.1 part 2/2

 WC>     John was certainly a special prophet of God but where in the
 WC> Bible does it tell us that God had already prepared the chosen
 WC> people to believe absolutely in John?

 What do you mean that the Bible does not tell us that God had already
 prepared the chosen people to believe absolutely in John ?

 His father was the chief priest, much like the Pope is today for the
 Catholoic church.  And Zac did not speak for the 9 months prior to
 John's birth.   Can you imagine the Pope not being able to speak for 9
 months ?    Anyway it certainly had an influence on the people's
 perspective of John:

 LUK 1:63 And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name
          is John. And they marvelled all.
 LUK 1:64 And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue [loosed],
          and he spake, and praised God.
 LUK 1:65 And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these
          sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of
          Judaea.
 LUK 1:66 And all they that heard [them] laid [them] up in their hearts,
          saying, What manner of child shall this be!
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Date       08-28-91 09:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.1 part 2/2

 WC>     There is no record in Scripture that the people followed
 WC> John the Baptist as if he were the Messiah. He had certainly had
 WC> followers but the Bible does not tell us that the whole nation
 WC> followed him.

 Many people believed that John the Baptist was Christ.

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Date       08-28-91 10:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject     MOSES.10

 WC>     It is an interesting concept that man can establish a
 WC> "heavenly foundation" when man is presently on the earth and not
 WC> in heaven.

 MAT 16:19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
             and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
             heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be
             loosed in heaven.
 MAT 18:18   Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth
             shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on
             earth shall be loosed in heaven.

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Date       08-28-91 10:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Moses.4

 WC>     That He is, Terry. But can you find a Scripture where it was
 WC> God that initiated the building of the Temple?

 Humm,  well I'm runnig short of time today, but I thought God gave Saul,
 then  David, then Solomon the mission to build the temple ?

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Date       08-28-91 10:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject      Moses.4

 WC>     Interesting enough, Terry, the church does not operate on a
 WC> national level but on the individual level. Salvation is on the
 WC> per- sonal level.

 That's good to know.  At least the Messiah won't have to overcome any
 national opposition from the church when he returns.

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Date       08-28-91 10:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Tongues part 6/7

 WC> RS>Not for me. I'm saved by grace.
 WC>
 WC>     Only when you have been obedient to the gospel will one be
 WC> saved by grace.

 So amazing that this is what I have been trying to teach you all along.
 Now I see you posting what I have taught you.  Makes me feel so good.
 <grin>

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Date       08-28-91 11:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Cults: Addition

 KK>  No,  I  don't question how much you love God.  I question how
 KK> much you  know  him,  or  his  road  to  salvation.    Waiting
 KK> for a return of a  Messiah  is  NOT  the  way  to Heaven.  You
 KK> can receive Him RIGHT NOW,  TODAY!  There  is  no  need  to wait
 KK> for salvation, thats a deception.  Don't  quit  reading  your
 KK> Bible,  and listen less to outside sources  (Man).    Pray to
 KK> the Father for knowledge and understanding.  And you  shall
 KK> receive.    See  I know Jesus has prepaired a place for me, I'm
 KK> saved  right now.  I'm waiting for the Messiah for our
 KK> redemption, not  salvation.

 Good point.   I have to agree.   Let's get on with redemption.

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Date       08-28-91 11:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Kevin Kitchen
Subject    Jehovah'S Name Vs. R.

 KK> > Well I have to disagree because you left off #6. Follow and
 KK> Obey > MAT 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
 KK> shall enter into >           the kingdom of heaven; but he that
 KK> doeth the will of my Father >           which is in heaven.
 KK>  Thats the same as #5. If the Lord is in control of your life
 KK> you  will follow and obey.

 But that's the tough part though.   I would like to hear from you how
 you go about following and obeying the Lord.   Your last message hit the
 target.  I'm writing messages to folks who I feel are already saved, it
 is 'Redemption' that we need to be discussing.

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Date       08-29-91 07:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Brothers and childrldre

 MS> Terry, you got booted from that other conference because you
 MS> showed a complete
 MS> disregard for the rules of that conference.

 What conference can have rules that you cannot post your view about
 the topic of the conference.  Censorship is a violation of the law.  No
 my friend, bigotry and prejudice is alive and well.  How could you post
 messages without allowing your beliefs to be conveyed ?  You can't.

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Date       08-29-91 08:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject     Cults: Addition

 EM> Re:  your interpretation of Heb 1:10 as an old man saying to his
 EM> son "I did all this FOR you"
 EM>
 EM> Baloney!
 EM>
 EM> Read the verse again.  God is telling Jesus that JESUS CREATED
 EM> THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.

 If Jesus had created the heavens and the earth, why would God be telling
 him ?  Don't you think Jesus would have remembered this spectacular
 event ?

 Didn't you know that God the Father created the world ?

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Date       08-29-91 08:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Moon

 EM> How can you take your beliefs from a man who said something you
 EM> openly admit you don't like?

 I suppose it is because I *KNOW* it is good for me.  If we only did what
 we like to do, when we got sick, we wouldn't take medicine that tastes
 bad would we ?  And think about getting a shot in the rear end with a #5
 nail filled with antibiotics that will zing your hiney for hours.

 You obliviously know that Jesus said a lot of thing the people didn't
 like to hear.  You will find several examples of him fleeing afterwards
 because they were angered.

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Date       08-29-91 09:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Moon

 EM> Where did Jesus say John the Baptist WAS Elijah?

 Matt 11:14  and  Matt 17:12

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Date       08-29-91 18:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dave Kenady
Subject    Respect for god's word -2

 DK>        Now do you see it?  No one can ever be made right in
 DK> God's sight by doing what the law commands.  For the more we
 DK> know of God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't obeying
 DK> them; His laws serve only to make us see that we are sinners.

 Humm, You must not be a follower of Jesus.   He said if thou wilt enter
 into life, keep the commandments.

 MAT 19:17   And he [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
             [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou
             wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 REV 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that
             keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


 God did not give man commandments to show us how dirty and unworthy we
 are.  God wants man to make the right decisions so we enter into a
 relationship with Him rather than remain lost.

 PSA 119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not
 thy law.

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Date       08-29-91 18:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dave Kenady
Subject    Respect for god's word -2

 DK> But the fact of the matter is this: when we
 DK> try to gain God's blessings and salvation by keeping his laws we
 DK> always end up under his anger, for we always fail to keep them.

 So should we Sin bravely so that Grace may abound ?

 Once again it looks like you don't agree with Jesus:

 MAT 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
            his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to
            his works.

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Date       08-29-91 23:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Miriam Nathan
Subject    The "jewish trinity"

 MN> Nearly every doctrine in Christianity has some relationship to
 MN> something Jewish.


 Except the really weird idea held by Christians ( including Jw's, and
 Mormons ) that God sent His only begotten son to be Murdered.

 I don't think you will find ANY Jew who is looking forward to the coming
 of Christ with a Hammer and Nail in their hand to fulfill the will of
 God.

 Ohh,  how about the theory of levitating to meet Christ in the
 stratosphere ?   That nonsense surely didn't come out of Judaism either.

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Date       08-30-91 07:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Cults: addition

 MS> As to the part of us being a messiah to our family members -
 MS> where in the world did Moon dig that up, since it is certainly
 MS> not in the Bible?

I still can't figure out your hostilty toward Rev. Moon,  anyway he 'dug
up' his information from his personal experiences/encounters with Jesus.

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Date       08-30-91 07:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Moon

 MS> TB> So can you explain why Jesus ( and John the Baptist ) began
 MS> his ministry
 MS>  > saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand ?   Why did Jesus
 MS> think the  > Kingdom was coming so soon ?  He didn't say people
 MS> had to die to go  > there.  He didn't say 2,000 years from now.
 MS> Jesus didn't fail, the  > people simply chose to disbelieve him
 MS> and they missed the boat !

 MS> Because He was talking of the Spiritual Kingdom of God, not an
 MS> earthly one like all the people were looking for.

 But the purpose for the coming of the Son of Man was to do away with the
 work of the Devil.  Why wouldn't that include total restoration.  You
 make Jesus' ministry look like a mechanic that half way fixes your car.

 Jesus came with the cure for sin, but the people would not unite with
 him and take the medicine.

 Fallen man does not like to do God's will:

 ACS 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do
           always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do]
           ye.

 ACS 7:52  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and
           they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the
           Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and
           murderers:

 St. Stephen's messages is right on target even today.

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Date       08-30-91 19:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject    SPIRITS

 PB>     If you mean demons and angels, then the answer is yes, but
 PB> if you you mean the spirits of people that died, then no.  The
 PB> spirits of dead people are either in heaven or in hades.

 Except the one with Jesus in paradice... < grin >.

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Date       08-30-91 19:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.3 part 1/3

 WC> TB>In Matthew 4:1-10 we read that Satan tested Jesus through
 WC> three TB>temptations. Satan's original purpose in attacking
 WC> Jesus with TB>these temptations was not to test any external
 WC> conditions or TB>Jesus's power to perform miracles, but was
 WC> specifically intended TB>to prevent Jesus from accomplishing his
 WC> purpose as the Messiah.

 WC>     You are partly correct, Terry. It would have destroyed God's
 WC> plan for the salvation of men everywhere.

 Thanks,  maybe your influence is making a difference.

 WC> TB>Because the Messiah comes to restore the world intended at
 WC> the TB>time of creation
 WC>
 WC>     The problem here is that you have missed the reason that
 WC> Jesus came into the world. Why not attribute to Him the same
 WC> purpose that the Bible does?

 WC> I Timothy 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all
 WC> accepta- tion, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save
 WC> sinners; of whom I am chief.

 Yes but if the purpose for creation would have been fulfilled by an
 obedient Adam and Eve, there wouldn't be any sinners to save.

 I'm beginning to realize you don't understand the Ideal world that God
 had in mind when He created His Children.

 The Messiah did indeed come to establish the Ideal world God had
 intended at the time of creation.

 1CH 17:11    And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that
              thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up
              thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will
              establish his kingdom.

 WC> TB>which was not established because of Satan, from Satan's
 WC> point of TB>view, the Messiah's fulfilling his purpose would
 WC> mean Satan's TB>eternal destruction.
 WC>
 WC>     You cannot find a Scripture that says that Satan himself
 WC> will be eternally destroyed. You can find that he will be thrown
 WC> into the lake of fire for all eternity at the end of the
 WC> Millennial Reign.

 I think the destruction of Satan means to destroy his kingdom.  Maybe we
 did not personally destroy Hussein, but his ability to pillage and rape
 neighboring countries through the use of the massive military power is
 destroyed.


 WC> TB>Since the Kingdom of Heaven is based on The Principle
 WC>
 WC>     The Bible never speaks of "The Principle." It does speak of
 WC> many things but this term is not scriptural. What does the Bible
 WC> say that the Kingdom of Heaven is?

 MAT 22:2  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which
           made a marriage for his son,
 MAT 22:3  And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to
           the wedding: and they would not come.

 MAT 22:4  Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which
           are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and
           [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready: come
           unto the marriage.
 MAT 22:5  But they made light of [it], and went their ways, one to his
           farm, another to his merchandise:

 Do you realize the consequences of going your own way when the marriage
 supper of the Lamb takes place ?   I don't write to scare you but in
 hopes you will see the advantage of attending the greatest event in the
 history or the world.

 MAT 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
           which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
 MAT 25:2  And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.
 MAT 25:3  They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil
           with them:
 MAT 25:4  But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
 MAT 25:8  And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for
           our lamps are gone out.
 MAT 25:9  But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not
           enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and
           buy for yourselves.
 MAT 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that
           were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was
           shut.
 MAT 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord,
           open to us.
 MAT 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you
           not.
 MAT 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour
           wherein the Son of man cometh.

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Date       08-30-91 20:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.3 part 1/3

 WC> TB>More specifically, the world which the Messiah must create is
 WC> the TB>world intended at the time of creation
 WC>
 WC>     Why MUST the Messiah create it?

 Because it does not exist.∙God has no world, country, state, city,
 town, village, or community He can call His own.  Until just recently (
 about 30 yrs ago ) God did not even have a family !


 Why is it so difficult to understand that Satan established a world of
 sin and suffering through a man AND a WOMAN.  God needs a man AND a
 WOMAN to establish His Ideal world of goodness.  What kind of prince of
 peace would not have a princess ?  What kind of King of Kings would not
 have a Queen ?∙ Any teaching that can't figure out such a fundamental
 truth is seriously crippled.

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Date       08-30-91 20:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.3 part 1/3

 WC>     Sorry, Terry, but when the new earth and the new heaven are
 WC> created everyone will be the same including those resurrected
 WC> from the dead. There will be no marriage then.

 I see your point, you simply don't believe Rev 19:9.

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Date       08-30-91 20:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus.3 part 1/3

 WC> TB>Thus, Jesus had to realize God's Three Blessings, and Satan's
 WC> at- TB>tempt to prevent Jesus from fulfilling his purpose was
 WC> through TB>three temptations that were based on the Three
 WC> Blessings.
 WC>     This is extra-biblical. The Bible does not teach this. You
 WC> can find no prophecy concerning Messiah that speaks of such a
 WC> thing. Jesus IS JEHOVAH GOD. However, Jesus is God and He did
 WC> not sin.


 Did I say Jesus sinned ?    What is your explanation of the three
 temptations ?

 WC>     First of all, what is your scriptural reference that the
 WC> stones were in Satan's possession and not just lying on the
 WC> ground? Second, how could Satan tempt Jesus in the wilderness
 WC> when you have already stated that this period was a separation
 WC> from Satan.

 This occurred at the end of his 40 day fast - which was the 40 day
 conditional time period for the Separation from Satan for Jesus to take
 over the mission of the faithless John the Baptist.

 WC>     There was no rock to restore, Terry. Jesus was the Rock and
 WC> never needed to be restored to anything. He was God and as such
 WC> created all things.

 Humm,  I thought even you believe Jesus came to save sinners ?  What is
 salvation ?   To save someone is to restore them right ?

 Salvation = Restoration

 How can you save a drowning person without restoring them to a safe
 location ?   How can you save a sick person without restoring them to a
 healthy state ?  How can Jesus save sinners without restoring them to a
 state of sinlessness ?

 Do you mean we can be saved and just keep on sinning ?   Somewhere we
 must stop sinning and become perfect.  Sin is any thought or action that
 makes a common base with Satan.  So it is necessary to separated from
 Satan and totally unite with God's chosen champion.  This way we can
 live for the public purpose, rather than copying Satan and living for
 only the individual self-centered purpose.  That is the way to separate
 from Satan.  Do what Satan can't do... LIVE FOR OTHERS.  Satan can only
 sacrifice others for himself.

 There are two ways that one may possibly find God.  1. pray fast and
 look for God  2.  become a person that God needs and God will come
 looking for you.  Read about God knocking someone off their ass if you
 don't know what I mean.  <grin>   Acs 9:4

 WC>     But it was the real issue. Because Jesus was fasting and
 WC> thus hungry He was also at a weak point (physically). Satan will
 WC> always attack when a person is at his weakest.

 Amen !   Well we do sometimes agree very strongly.

 WC> TB>Therefore, we can understand that Jesus is the main temple
 WC> and the TB>believers are the branch temples,
 WC>
 WC>     You have no Scripture to support this statement. It is
 WC> extra- biblical. Neither will the analogy hold. The Bible says
 WC> that the believers are the body of Christ and that He is the
 WC> head. You have no Scriptural precedent for you statement. The
 WC> temple of the body is a reference that that is where God dwells
 WC> as the Holy Spirit and applies only to believers.

 JOH 15:5    I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me,
             and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for
             without me ye can do nothing.

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Date       08-30-91 20:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Les Wilcox
Subject     JESUS.7

 LW> >It is obvious something unexpected happened.
 LW>
 LW> Yes it is.  It was unexpected because they were expecting
 LW> Jesus in the wrong way.

 Amen !  And it is happening again right now in our own time.

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Date       08-30-91 20:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC>     Well, I have three witness from Scripture that God does not
 WC> love one person above another. Scripture even declares that it
 WC> is a sin to do so. Therefore, God does not esteem one person
 WC> above another. It is the individual's response to God that makes
 WC> the difference.

 This is obviously phony bologna that came out of the Protestant
 Reformation.  You roots to Westley are all too obvious.   This kind of
 doctrine was simply invented to get people to join a non-Catholic
 movement.  So they had to scratch around and come up with something to
 get folks to disobey the hierarchy of the church.  Look at the results:
 400 dominations of Christianity.  If Christ is going to come to one of
 your groups, the other 399 will be sorely disappointed. What if Christ
 wants to send you a message ?  At least the Catholics have the Pope, the
 Mormons have a Prophet, and the Jw's have got someone (who knows where)
 printing the Watchtower.  I suppose God needs a secretary  to contact
 your people by sending out a memo to each and every individual ?

 You better take my advice and throw out that anti-Catholic doctrine
 taught by men with rebelious intent - in favour of the doctrine taught
 by Christ:

 MAT 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall
           receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous
           man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous
           man's reward.

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Date       08-30-91 21:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC>     How was Cain supposed to force God to accept Abel's
 WC> sacrifice when even God could not get Abel to do right?

 If Abel didn't do it right, why did God accept it ?   If Abel got his
 offering accepted once, don't you think he could have done it again ?

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Date       08-30-91 21:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC>     God does not favor one individual over another. See above
 WC> Scrip- ture references. It is the individual response to God
 WC> that makes the difference.

 ISA 55:4    Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a
             leader and commander to the people.

 So why did God give the 10 commandments to the people through Moses ?
 Maybe He should have sent a memo to them individually ?

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Date       08-30-91 21:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC> TB>in other words God's central figures like Noah, Moses,
 WC> Abraham and TB>Jacob, are asked to sacrifice, fast, build boats,
 WC> fight with an- TB>gels, and go to prison, etc for the sake of
 WC> the people God is TB>trying to lead/reach through them.
 WC>
 WC>     That sound correct. Now quote us a Scripture where God asked
 WC> Abel to make such a sacrifice.

 It sounds correct because it IS correct.  The one thing fallen man MUST
 learn to do is receive love through the person God chooses as His
 central figure for the time.  Satan fell because he could not receive
 God's love through Adam.  God was angry with the people because they
 would not follow Moses.  God was heartbroken because the people MURDERED
 His son.

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Date       08-30-91 21:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC> TB>What's so strange about Zac having children by two women?
 WC>
 WC>     Nothing at all provided the Bible tells us that is what
 WC> happened. Yet we find nothing in Scripture to support such a
 WC> position. Even less is there Bible support for ole Zac having
 WC> illicit sexual relations with Mary when the Bible specifically
 WC> declares in both the Old and New Testament that Jesus was to be
 WC> born of a virgin.

 You should take the time to find out the correct translation of this
 scripture.  I don't claim to have any linguistic skills, but even the
 most fundamental christian books like EErman's handbook of the Bible
 admits that the correct translation is simply 'young woman'.  I think
 you have posted messages that contained the interpretations, why don't
 you start by checking it out for yourself.

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Date       08-31-91 07:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Creation

 TB> Didn't you know that God the Father created the world ?


 JW> And Jesus:

 1 + 1 = 2     How many gods are their ?  Do you see why some people
 reject this Jesus is God theory ?  We don't want to be guilty of
 polytheism.

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Date       08-31-91 07:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject     Cults: Addition

 EM> Yes, of course God the Father created the world.  That's the
 EM> whole point of Hebrews 1:10, which says that JESUS created the
 EM> world--which means they're
 EM> one and the same.
 EM>
 EM> Your view of that verse is based on flimflam and nothingness,
 EM> not the facts of the verse itself.

 Jesus and God the fathere are NOT the same:

 They don't know the same thing:

 MAR 13:32    But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not
              the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
              Father.

 Jesus was flesh and God is Spirit.
 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
             [him] in spirit and in truth.

 JOH 8:54    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
             it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he
             is your God:

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;

 COL 3:1     If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which
             are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 JOH 5:19    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I
             say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what
             he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
             these also doeth the Son likewise.

 1JO 4:14    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the
             Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 Jesus, at most, being a man can only be half God:
 GEN 1:27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God
             created he him; male and female created he them.

 2CO 4:4     In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of
             them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
             gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine
             unto them.

 ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
             afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
             me.

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Date       08-31-91 07:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Is John the Baptist Elija

 EM> Doesn't the Bible teach against reincarnation?

I don't  know but I don't believe in reincarnation so it is not a
concern to me.   When Jeus said that John is Elijah, I think he meant
that John had the same mission.   There have been many presidents,
kings, popes, and sheriff's but that does not mean that the current ones
are the reincarnation of the past ones.

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Date       08-31-91 07:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Jesus.2 Part 1/5

 JW> I like your reply, and I have no problem believing that God sent
 JW> Reverend Moon to be another fallen man on this earth.  I just
 JW> have problems believing that he is the promised Messiah and that
 JW> Jesus didn't get it right.

 I understand your skepticism about Rev. Moon, but about Jesus.....
 Well something went wrong.  God didn't need to prepare a nation to
 expect the messiah, then work all those miracles and give all those
 revelations about him, just to get him murdered.  How about meditating
 on this for a while:

 LUK 13:34  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and
            stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have
            gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her
            brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

 This just doesn't sound like a person that is happy about the situation.


 JW> TB> So why didn't he <John the Baptist> become Jesus' #1 man ?
 JW> TB> When we read that the people who Jesus finally found to
 JW> TB> support him had no idea that Elijah was supposed to come
 JW> TB> before the Lord, it is VERY obvious they weren't nearly as
 JW> TB> qualified as a man like John.

 JW> In whose eyes was John more qualified? Ours, or God's?

 Maby I did not make my point clear enough. Jesus should have been
 supported to the fullest degree by people like John, St. Paul, etc.,
 this would have allowed him to reach the people.

 MAT 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes
           concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see?
           A reed shaken with the wind?
 MAT 11:8  But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft
           raiment? behold, they that wear soft [clothing] are in kings'
           houses.
 MAT 11:9  But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto
           you, and more than a prophet.
 MAT 11:10 For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my
           messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before
           thee.
 MAT 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there
           hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:
           notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is
           greater than he.

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Date       08-31-91 07:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Jesus.3 part 2/5

 EM> How does this show that John the Baptist had messed up?

 Mat 11:7 ff  shows me that John lost faith in Christ.  Is this what we
 should expect of the Greatest Born of Woman ?  Now we know how the
 greatest born of woman could become the least....   The greatest born of
 woman should naturally become the greatest ( or at least in the top 10
 <grin> ) in the kingdom of heaven.  But John finished dead last !

 John was simply stupid.  He thought that if he followed Jesus he would
 decrease:   John 3:30   If you can find anyone in this conference or
 anyone that will enter a message in this conference that will tell me
 that following Christ will cause someone to decrease then I'll
 reconsider my opinion about John's success.

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Date       08-31-91 08:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Jesus.3 part 2/5

 EM> First, you've abruptly changed subjects.  Walter was talking
 EM> about Jesus, you changed it to John the Baptist.

 That's allowed.  <grin>    You how to define a boring person... he/she
 is one that can change the conversation to what they want to talk about
 faster than you can change it back to what you want to talk about.  ha
 ha he he ha    I may be getting pretty boring.

 EM> Second,....

 EM> Note that that verse did NOT say they'd remain that way
 EM> forever--JtB was eventually killed and went to heaven and was
 EM> himself cleansed of the presence of sin.  Jesus simply said
 EM> that, FOR THE PRESENT, JtB was still on earth and was still a
 EM> sinner, however good he might be relative to other men.

 You sure are working hard to defend John.  Any particular reason ?

 He did lose faith in Christ after all the preparations God had put into
 raising him up to support Jesus.

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Date       08-31-91 08:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Wildenthal
Subject    Jesus.3 Part 2/5

 JW> Walter was talking about Jesus, not John the Baptist here.

 Well since this is the second message showing me my goof up, I'll admit
 I could possibly have gotten confused ( How's that for admitting a
 mistake ?) <grin>   Actually, I was just testing everyone to see who was
 reading my messages.....  yeah that's the ticket.   <blush>

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Date       08-31-91 08:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    JESUS.7

 EM> I'll just bring up one point you made, that God gave up the
 EM> First Israel and focused on the second one (Christians).  GOD
 EM> NEVER GAVE UP THE FIRST ONE!  God never gives up on ANYONE.
 EM> (Read the parable about how a shepherd with a hundred sheep
 EM> will take time off to reclaim just one that wanders off.)
 EM> Jesus's message is to Jews and Gentiles ALIKE--Jews aren't
 EM> higher nor lower.

 It would help if you quoted me saying that God GAVE UP.  If you read
 the parable of the vineyard, you may realize that Judaism is no longer
 playing first chair.   If I did say 'gave up' it was a mistake, I should
 have said:

 MAT 21:43   Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken
             from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits
             thereof.

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Date       08-31-91 17:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Brothers and childrldre

 MS> Face it, Terry.  You went against the posted rules and were
 MS> called down on it.  You weren't posting views - you were posting
 MS> doctrines of your church.

 So are you.  When are you going to leave this conference ?

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Date       08-31-91 17:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mark Bassett
Subject     Jesus.1 part 1/2

 MB> I thought this whole thing you are going on about was
 MB> unashamedly extra-scriptur...

 When I agreed that my belief was extra-biblical it was with the
 explanation that extra-biblical means you disagree.  That's all.  How
 many people have had been bitterly criticised for their interpretation
 of scripture, only to later have those views accepted.  Do you recall
 this:

 MAR 2:24    And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the
             sabbath day that which is not lawful?

 Let's look at the response of the people toward a man who was accused of
 teaching an extra-biblical message:

 JOH 5:16  And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay
           him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
 JOH 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not
           only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his
           Father, making himself equal with God.

 Did Jesus really teach something that was extra-biblical, or was his
 teaching misunderstood ?

 When people accuse someone of teaching something extra-biblical, they
 are making an attempt to accuse the person of going against the Bible.

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Date       08-31-91 17:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Stephens
Subject    Jesus.2 part 1/5

 MS> TB> Now it is your turn.  Find one instance of John ever
 MS> following Jesus and
 MS>  > taking instructions from him.
 MS>
 MS> John never followed Jesus because he was never called to.

 MAT 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes
           concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see?
           A reed shaken with the wind?

 MAT 11:8  But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft
           raiment? behold, they that wear soft [clothing] are in kings'
           houses.
 MAT 11:9  But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto
           you, and more than a prophet.
 MAT 11:10 For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my
           messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before
           thee.
 MAT 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there
          hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding